By no means am I out to delegitimize Costello as a musician or human being. The man has released records with musicians as genre-spanning as Burt Bacharach and The Roots, for Gods sake. So accomplished and admirable. What a marvel.

Yet, my Elvis Costello vibe is this: Have you ever had someone you know and feel safe with do something bizarre or creepy? I have. My whole feeling about them changes. They dont feel safe anymore. I might want to like them, but the memory of the way I felt in that instance cant be erased. Now, Ive listened to and sung along with Alison for years, but over the last few, particularly while rewatching New Girl, the song hit me in a different way. So, while I respect Costello and his impressive and expansive oeuvre, he lightly creeps me out. And for that reason, I will not be seeing him play at the Orpheum on Nov. 24. I wont settle for less than the choicest vibes. Im sure its no skin off his back.

On the same note, Im actively ridding my record collection of what I refer to as creepy old man music, like recent castoff Rolling Stones Some Girls. (The title track is atrocious.) There were scant options not to identify with angry young man music at that precious point in my life. (Nod to the Riot Grrrl movement for throwing me a life preserver.) And in identifying with an overtly masculine zeitgeist at a tender age, I felt I also had, in some way, to excuse the depiction of women as inferior humans, glorified or reviled through the male gaze. Granted, my origins are far from feminist, so I cant pin this solely on creepy old man music. But many people particularly women ("girls," in the nomenclature) dont get a peek outside of this limiting and oppressive perspective. For that, I cant bring myself to participate in the misogynistic, problematic charade any longer. Not for all the catchy nostalgia in the world.

Scott: I think what's also really hairy here is that if you get into Costello in your teens or early 20s, his work often feels like an escape from, or at least a counterpoint to, the machismo you expect from male rock musicians like the Stones. It's nerdy, it's sardonic, its anger feels like the anger of the underdog, at least until you scratch the surface. Of course, we know it isn't that simple, that a man doesn't stop playing his role in broader societal imbalances just because he strikes a goony pigeon-toed posture or credits his guitar playing to "the little hands of concrete." We're hardly the first to ask what role misogyny plays in Costello's music, and he has written that he finds that line of critique "bewildering."

It's interesting that you mention "This Year's Girl," because that song by itself has been pretty central to the debate over how Costello's music portrays women. He addressed this in his memoir, even, asserting as you do that the song targets not the woman but the man's way of looking at her. He also claims in the same passage that maybe some critics and listeners were just projecting their own misogyny onto him. Which, I mean, come on, we know he can look inward a little harder than that. It's a bit of a dodge. The question here isn't necessarily whether Costello is a particularly odious misogynist, but whether he can grapple with the assumptions and worldviews and blind spots he carries into his work. I think it'll still be a great show and I've had four very good experiences seeing him live, but I can understand feeling icky enough to stay away.

Holly: Good point on the machismo front, Scott. Elvis Costellos a cool rock guy, right? Not some hair metal schmuck or like stereotype. Similar to Rivers Cuomowho probably picked up some style, if not lyrical, tips from Costello. Nerdy Cuomo wrote No One Else and Across The Sea in the mid 90s. The formers about wanting a girl who lives her life essentially for his enjoyment. The latter? A sweet tale of yearning to put the moves on an 18-year-old Japanese schoolgirl who sent him fan mail, admitting it would be wrong, yet creeping out all the while.

It comes down to context. Cuomo was a non-macho rock guy for his day, as was Costello. At the time, the kind of sentiments in Alison and the aforementioned Weezer songs were accepted as sweet, relatively emotionally mature alternatives to songs that blatantly objectified women. Look, these nerd rock songs say, I have a mind and a heart. And thats great. Rock music needed that. Yet toxic masculinity has come across as progressive on many fronts.

Its much easier to sweep this subject under the rug and bask in nostalgia. So thank you for having this discussion. In analyzing these instances of misogyny and heteronormativity, we can focus on untangling problematic ideas, rather than vilifying the artists who expressed them 20-40 years agoregardless of whether the artists have changed their minds. Freedom of expression is a right and fuck ups are inevitable. Learning from the past is whats important. If more young people and musicians are exposed to ideas about how these kinds of songs oppress others, theyll be better equipped to write more empoweringand sexy!songs about relationships. Music by women expressing themselves with little concern for the male gaze definitely had a lasting impact on me, and for that Im eternally grateful.

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Growing up with, and outgrowing, Elvis Costello - tonemadison.com