The Dior Men designer joins fashion's favorite masked cowboy to discuss ego, David Bowie, and finding queerness in country music

Canadian musician Orville Peck and British fashion designer Kim Jones are singular talents, but in their singularity lies a profound connection: Both have established their careers by pushing against the grain, drawing inspiration from a countercultural, and often counterintuitive, approach to established ideas. Joness fanboy appreciation of punk and queer subcultures, and his extensive travels to Africa in his youth, have blossomed into one of the most distinctive talents in fashion. After earning his spurs revitalizing the staid British luxury brand Dunhill, where he was hired in 2008 as the first creative director in the companys history, Jones set about electrifying Louis Vuitton with his refined streetwear aesthetic. His focus on collaborationincluding with BritArt bad boys Jake and Dinos Chapman and, more spectacularly, James Jebbia at Supremehelped change the parameters of luxury fashion. Hes now doing thatand moreas creative director of Dior Men, using his obsessive and completist approach to pop culture as a springboard for a deep dive into the brands history. Not for nothing did the industry journal Business of Fashion exclaim, in a review of Diors Fall 2020 collection, The Future is Now at Dior. Jones has paid tribute to the brands extraordinary lineage through creative directors past including Christian Dior, Yves Saint Laurent, Marc Bohan, and John Galliano, while injecting it with his enormous enthusiasm for contemporary culture. Its not only his collaborations with Kaws, Raymond Pettibon, Daniel Arsham, and Shawn Stussy that have marked his still-fresh tenure at the brand, but also his ardent appreciation for music, particularly in his ongoing work with DJ Honey Dijon, who develops the soundtracks for his shows.

Given all that, its hardly surprising that Jones was drawn to the pseudonymous singer-songwriter Orville Peck who has co-opted country music as a soundscape for his playful meditations on gay identity and desire. On the lush ballad, Turn to Hate, for example, Peck croons about heartache like the gorgeous offspring of a union between Roy Orbison and Lloyd Cole. Like Jones, what makes Peck exciting is the broad palate of influences that elevate his work into a league of its own. You can hear his early enthusiasm for punk in his debut album, Pony, but you also hear his love of camp, his fierce understanding of theater and performance, and an abiding love for country musics torch song tradition. For Document the two artists got together to talk about the beauty of collaboration, the enduring legacy of David Bowie, and Pecks head-turning Dior moment in Miami last December.

Jacket and pants by Dior Men PF20. Boots Orvilles own.

Orville Peck: Thank you for waiting. I just scratched my eyeball last night, and I woke up with a crazy inflamed eye. So I had to go to the doctor this morning, and it took forever because Americayou know how it is.

Kim Jones: Where are you?

Orville: Im in LA.

Kim: Youre skyrocketing at the moment, arent you?

Orville: [Laughs] Its so bizarre.

Kim: Yes, but you should enjoy it.

Aaron Hicklin: How did you come to work together?

Kim: I heard Orvilles music and found the album and put it on repeat and really admired his approach in terms of image and the music. So I contacted him because when I admire someones work, I like to work with them.

Orville: It came through really casually. I remember thinking it was fake at first. I was completely flattered and excited and thrilled by it. As a musician, Ive never really been involved in the fashion world, but Ive been a fan of it my whole life and, lets be honest, Dior is not too bad.

Kim: We met up in London and then worked out how many different connections we had.

Orville: It speaks a lot to who you are, Kim, as well. Everybody loves working and dealing with you because when you like something, it doesnt matter if its approved across the board, or if its even going to be advantageous to you. Youre the kind of person who reaches out and wants to work with people who inspire you, and I think its reciprocated.

Kim: If I like a persons work, I think its important to support it, especially in this day and age when everything gets segregated. To build a community of talented people who inspire people is important.

Aaron: Kim, youve referred to the role of the fashion designer in many ways being not dissimilar to the pop star. Music and fashion are handmaidens; they go together. I wonder if youve given much thought to where that comes from? Does music give rise to how you dress or does how you dress give rise to your musical taste?

Kim: I think it used to. Everything has blended together now. Subcultures have become more homogenized, just because of people seeing things. And when you see someone doing something on their own, distinct from the crowd, you pay attention to it, which is what Orville has done.

Orville: The older Ive gotten, the more I think of art with a capital A. For me that includes music, fashion, visual art, cinema. All of those things feed and inspire me to create. Whether thats a song or a look, I think those things go hand in hand. I think about an artist like David Bowie, who was a musician first and foremost, but he created so much more art than you could ever just call music.

Kim: He was an inspiration to a huge generation of people, and still is. When you think about how forward-thinking and shocking that must have been to the world. I was very lucky to have worked with him before he died, and he was absolutely the sweetest. He had all these books piled up. There was a massive pile of [cinematographer] Derek Jarman books and [British playwright] Joe Orton books. He was reading about all these different things, and telling me about when hed come up with different ideas, and how. It was mind-blowing.

Aaron: What is the relationship between musical mentors and heroes and your understanding of yourselves? What was it that helped you understand your evolving identities when you were younger?

Orville: The best creators, in any medium, draw inspiration from different places. My music is definitely inspired by fashion and cinema. Everyone has their personal mood board in their head. I grew up listening to punk and obviously country. It makes sense to find inspiration from all those different places. If you have a taste level, that has to be fed by interesting things. Youre not going to find that purely in your medium.

Kim: Yeah, the thing for me is that my eyes are always open; I cant not look at stuff. I like doing different things all the time. Thats probably why Im good at fashion, because Im on to the next thing straight away, hopefully not in a superficial way. I like to be moving forward always.

Orville: I think evolution is such an important part of being an artist because you understand that evolution is a crucial part of art.

Aaron: Kim, youre well known for collaboration and really valuing the exchange of ideas with artists as part of your creative process.

Kim: I collaborate with a studio full of people, and I respect their tastes, their ideas, and they know what I want. Youre the maestro leading an orchestra, so to speak, when you work in these big companies. Its not about sitting down and doing everything by yourself because thats not a feasible thing now. I like working with different people with different ideas. Its a conversationit makes me think of things in different ways.

Orville: I came out of a place where collaborating was a necessity because you couldnt do it alone. I would have to reach out and work with people. I come from a world of everybody making something out of nothing together. I have really tried to keep that collaborative spirit through my career, even though its not a necessity anymore. Ego and stubbornness kill art. I have no time for them, so I love collaborating on a creative level, a visual level, a sonic level. I love meeting someone who I can continue collaborating with because building those relationships, thats where magic happens, at least historically. Sometimes it comes out of an unlikely pairing, which I like even more.

Orville Peck wears jacket and coat by Dior Men PF20. Custom hat (worn throughout) by Dior Men. Ring Orvilles own.

Kim: I like things to feel authentic. Its not because its someone cool and I want to use them, it comes from respect and loving what they do.

Orville: I think it really shows in the diverse people you have around you. Its not even just fashion peopleif anything, fashion people feel like theyre in the minority, and that really speaks to who you are. When I was at [your show in] Miami, I sat next to the Kardashians, and Travis Scott and James Blake and David Beckham and Detox were there, such an incredible group of diverse people, and its really a testament to your collaborative nature and the fact that its how you like to work.

Kim: At the end of the day, theyre my friends, you know? I get blown away by that sometimes. Its actually funny thinking about music. Honey Dijons my main collaborator in music. Ive known Honey since 2001. We bonded because Im really into music, and Im into collecting club memorabilia. I dont think Ive kept everything, but Im a hoarder. I was thinking of all the people Ive worked with, like Giorgio Moroder, Nile Rodgers, Drake, Michael Stipe, Diplo, A-Trakyou know, its a privilege to be able to do that.

Aaron: Orville mentioned that theres no place for ego in the creative process. The New York Times said about Kim that he is a designer who never aspired to have his initials on his clothes. Orville, your presentation seems designed to sublimate your ego to your craft. Does that make your creativity more fruitful?

Orville: Its not that ego doesnt creep into my lifeI think for everybody, its something to keep in checkbut especially someone like me, who doesnt have loads of self-confidence, to be honest, I have to fake a bit of an ego to give me a bit of a boost at some point. But I would rather have the work speak for me. When youre passionate and confident in what youre making, and you have a vision, the idea of desperately trying to validate yourself through it becomes secondary because youre so focused on something that youre passionate about because you love it.

Kim: I just wish Id been as clever as you and worn a mask from day one so I could have some privacy! Thats a stroke of genius: Youre anonymous, but youre famous, and thats a weird thing to be.

Orville: Its definitely a little bit of comfort.

Kim: Im sure you get some stalkers who see you out and about and recognize your tattoos.

Orville: It happens more these days than not, but its fine.

A lot of the themes in classic country were about loneliness and disappointment and heartbreak and isolation, so it made complete sense that country music would appeal to a gay audience even more so than to a well-adjusted straight white man.

Aaron: Can we talk about the Dior pieces that Orville wore as part of the F/W Dior Collection?

Kim: It was the cowboy version of Dior, with the beaded fringing on the mask. It was fun to do just for one person. Even the fringe boots are a luxury for me because I dont really do that very often.

Orville: Ive always been so flattered and grateful that Kim respects that I have a certain look, and I think the kind of genius of it is that instead of trying to figure out how to work that, he just knows thats my aesthetic. And he does Dior for me, and it looks and works like a perfect collaboration.

Aaron: Orville, youve talked about the challenge of being a gay country musicianthe bullying and the discrediting that you have to deal with. How do you use your craft to disrupt the conventional associations we make with country music?

Orville: Sadly, to be quite honest, like any genre, if you go far enough to the top, its generally dominated by old white straight men, like most things in this world. But country, particularly, has been associated with very little diversity through the years. Its funny because I grew up loving country music, and I was always obsessed with cowboys. I grew up in Africa actuallyKim and I have that connection as well. My connection to cowboys was very pastiche; the idea of a cowboy was the Lone Ranger. A lot of the themes in classic country were about loneliness and disappointment and heartbreak and isolation, so it made complete sense that country music would appeal to a gay audience even more so than to a well-adjusted straight white man, which is a funny stigma about country. Its this really heartbreaking music that should be made for people whove experienced those things, and thats what I connected to when I was younger. When I knew I wanted to be a country musician, I wanted to portray that connection with country music that I had growing up. I saw that there was something missing from it, and when you see something missing, its usually good to jump in.

Aaron: Kim, growing up in Africa was a seminal thing for you in terms of your aesthetic, and the way you perceive dress and color.

Kim: Im so grateful for that experience. It made me realize and appreciate that all over the world, everyone was very different. One thing that my father really instilled within me is that everyones equal. It doesnt matter about money; it doesnt matter about skin color. You have to be around different people. So my group of friends was a real mix of all these different people. And then my love of nature. One of the most amazing powerful images was in Ethiopia, seeing these super tall people wearing all this jewelry, and with these amazing wraps around them, and then these huge Kalashnikov machine guns. Just seeing that and thinking, Wow, these are the coolest people you are ever going to see.

Orville: Kims hit the nail on the head. I feel so proud and grateful to have grown up there. You experience so much culture and life that I think a lot of people in the West dont necessarily get to. The nature element is a really big one. I feel so clearly connected to the natural world around me, and I dont think of myself as separate from that, whereas a lot of the mentality in the West is that nature is something to look at rather than to be a part of. Kim and I have that in common. Oftentimes, we will send each other pictures of animals because both of us love wildlife so much, and I attribute that to our upbringing.

Aaron: Which animals did you send to each other?

Kim: It was a possum last time. Orville put it on Instagram, so we got talking about different marsupials.

Orville: Kim sent me some sharks recently.

Aaron: Kim, as well as your love of animals, youre a collector of books.

Kim: The books Im collecting right now are related to the Bloomsbury set, particularly Virginia Woolf. They lived their lives the way they wanted to live them in a time when it wasnt really possible, and yet they were still respectable in society. My two favorite books are both copies of Orlando: One is inscribed to [Woolfs lover and subject of Orlando] Vita Sackville-West by Virginia, and Vita has written in it as well. Then, I have a copy inscribed to [Woolfs sister] Vanessa Bell, inscribed from your slave and sister. Im very into stuff like that, of historic importance.

Orville: I love hearing Kim talk about things that he likes because he gets so into it. I think its so important these days because a lot of art is made from a place by people who arent fans of other things. You have to be a fan of art to make it, and its actually less prevalent than it should be.

Kim: When Im at home, Im like a librarian, organizing everything, rearranging books until theyre perfect. My friend came over to help me, and I said, People must wonder what a designers life is like, and there I am in my pajamas on a Saturday night organizing books.

Stylist Assistant Myles Xavier. Photographed at the New York EDITION.

Original post:

Kim Jones and Orville Peck talk art with a capital A - Document Journal