Give the drummer some. They can make a record great, and Brian Fallon is well aware of it. When we meet to talk about the landmark solo album he's about to release, he's full of enthusiasm for Kurt Leon before we even sit down, whose inventive playing brings new colours to some of the finest songs Fallon has ever written.

"Hes one of the best drummers Ive ever heard," breams Brian. "Its crazy the stuff thats hes done hes played with Brian Blade. Hes now in the live band and I didnt know him before the record. We did the record and I said, Youve got to play with me, I cant let this go. It was just amazing."

Local Honey is a special album. It's not the heart-pounding, highway-conquering punk rock and r 'n' b hotrod many will know and admire Fallon for from his Gaslight Anthem work. And sonically, under the detailed production ear of Peter Katis (The National, The War On Drugs) it's a marked departure from his previous two solos albums, 2016's Painkillers and 2018's Sleepwalkers. And yet it speaks just as loud and clear in its own, heartfelt way. It's pure Brian Fallon, more than anything he's done before.

Here he speaks with marked candour about the genesis, toil and vindication behind the album's creation. But we should still start with the drums

Did any of the songs change due to that percussive element?

The big changes happened before I went in because I had this idea of what I wanted it to sound like and then I started writing it, and somewhere in the middle of the summer last year I just flipped the whole thing.

"I was trying to make the songs louder, more rock I guess and it was just not happening. I thought, this sucks it sounds terrible. Most of the songs I rewrote and then a lot of the songs I decided, if this song can survive on piano and guitar by itself then it can live. If not Im throwing it away. A lot of them I would do that way; some of them stayed and some of them left. Then others I wrote from scratch when I figured out what I was going to do.

"I tried to do the cardinal sin which was to ignore your subconscious"

So it wasnt a case of you coming off your acoustic tour last year and wanting to a write a more acoustic-based album at all?

It was, in my subconscious. What happened was, I tried to do the cardinal sin which was ignore your subconscious because I didnt realise then what was happening. In the summer the thing that I found out is I was on those tours, I did the US in the fall and over here [UK and Europe] in the February of last year and I was like, you know what thats what was moving me, Ive got to follow that.

I think I was listening to Time Out Of Mind from Bob Dylan, I was thinking about the tour and listening to that record and thats when I thought, this is what its supposed to sound like. I know what Im doing now. And then that was it I just went forward.

"And I didnt even have a producer. Peter hadnt even joined yet. I think I talked to Peter about a month before I went in. I was like, Are you free by any chance? Peter does like 900 records a year by the National and War On Drugs, no big deal, right? He said, Ive got the whole month of October. I said Id be there, I drove up to Connecticut and we did it.

This isn't an Americana album it's not the Brian Fallon folk album. Was that a challenging path to avoid going down?

Thats Peter though. If you left me to my own devices it would probably be more traditional, there would have been fiddles on it. I think thats why I went to Peter. I think people make traditional Americana records better than I could. I didnt want to compete. Because Im the kind of person where if I cant at least do well, I dont want to compete. Im not going to run you in a race because I cant run.

"The guys Im influenced by too, like Tom Waits and Bruce Springsteen, theyve always been part of it but a little left of centre"

Also, I admire the people that are out right now but I dont what to be like them. I want to do my own thing. The guys Im influenced by too, like Tom Waits and Bruce Springsteen, theyve always been part of it but a little left of centre.

"Even Bruces acoustic records, theyre not traditional Americana records and especially Tom. Theyre a part of it and they embrace it. I embrace Americana and thats one of the music I listen to the most but Im not trying to shoehorn in there."

One of the striking things about this album is the way it balances a sense of intimacy and being exposed with sonic details how challenging was that to balance?

Extraordinarily difficult. We did so much work on adding things, taking away things, moving things. Its not only about the way its recorded, its how it sounds with the other things.

"Normally you make a record and you track drums, bass, guitar at the same time or you do everything one on one. But its ok heres my coffee, heres the sugar, milk and heres the spoon. Youre adding stuff together. With this, you put an element in and youre like, no its off balance. So that comes out. Then you put another element in, that works. Then you put another in and its off balance. It was such a process. It was weird and Ive never done anything like it but Ive also never got such a good result.

"Peter Katis really inspired me to try different things because I was very much a traditionalist"

What it started with a lot of the time was Id go to the piano and just play the song and record it. Vocal and guitar or vocal and piano. Thats it. Then we would start building everything up. But sometimes by the time it got to the playing or the drums would go on, whatever I did in the beginning would go away. So it was constantly evolving.

And you had to be open to that?

Yes, and at first I was not. But then Peter would be like, Look, its 2019, we dont make records like the '60s anymore. Those records have been made, theyve already done the best thats going to happen. I think we should go forward. He really inspired me to try different things because I was very much a traditionalist. I was, live or its not real. But apparently theres all these different ways to do it.

Theres actually a plenty of electric guitar going on and those parts fit in without overpowering the songs. Do you feel thats where a lot of your woodshedding as a player has paid dividends?

Big time because with those kind of songs you cant just shred a solo. Maybe its because Im older and Ive been playing a lot longer, I learned how to do crazy stuff and how to play crazy licks but the hardest thing guitar players learn is you have to know when to stop. When not play, and you cant be shredding the whole time. Once you have that skill you want to do it you want to play because playings fun but not on these songs, youve got to be careful. Its more what you dont play.

With this stuff I was looking at the way Daniel Lanois plays, hes got that band Black Dub that he plays in and if you listen to his guitar playing its extremely held back but its tasteful.

"Even the Tom Waits records Keith Richards played on, like Rain Dogs, he would play these extremely tasty things but it was way in the back. One note had to mean everything. If I didnt go through the last two years, and Im still doing it Im learning. Im way into Julian Lage now, Im learning all these different things. But youve got to hold back, thats the secret. Hit the right note at the right time.

Are some of the acoustic fingerpicking patterns in these songs challenging when playing along to the percussion?

It is but I lead it. The big thing was Kurt had to find something that fits thats not the train beat. But Kurt would not play the train beat, he said, Thats what everybody plays and Im just not interested in doing that. Ok, great. Show me something cool then, and he did.

We treated everything as if it was living, so my part would evolve a little bit, his part would evolve a little. But fingerpicking, thats not for the faint of heart. Im still learning theres like 50 million patterns out there. Again though, youve got to be tasteful with the fingerpicking.

"You Have Stolen My Heart is so much harder than it seems"

"Its funny because I learned the fingerpicking from Mark Knopfler and he did the records with Emmylou Harris and that later period solo work like All The Road Running. Theres a song he did called Haul Away and it sounds like an old Irish ballad. I was trying to figure it out and hes using standard chords but hes playing it like a piano, not like a guitar.

"That was one of the tricks I used on the record, chord-wise. When a piano moves chords its not like 1,2,3,4 move, its 1 and 2 and 3 and 4. If you move guitar chords like that you have to adapt your strumming and your picking. Jeff Buckley did it really well and Nina Simones guitar player [Alvin Schackman] did it amazingly.

"So I was learning that these chords were moving at different times but it wasnt a fingerpicking song, how do I do this? And on Haul Away, Mark was strumming with his fingers but its not up and down, theres not like a bass note and then a high strum a boom-ring, boom-ring, to keep the beat. With this theres only the ring. So its rest, ring-ring. To get that delicate strum the strum on the song You Have Stolen My Heart is so much harder than it seems."

Playing and singing that too, not easy

At the same time! So all those tricks, and the drumming and the lyrics are like the heroes of the record. The funny thing is I had that small-bodied Martin I showed you last time. There were vintage guitars laying around all the time. There were a couple of Gibsons laying around and they were cool and we used them but the main guitar we used was that 00-42 Martin and my National Resonator. All over the record.

So the two were layered because they brought different qualities?

Yes, and when you put them together, it was so weird how that worked. And the resonator, I couldnt believe it. I just brought it along thinking Id play some slide on it, whatever. But it killed it! But that wasnt me, that was Peter he was all about trying things.

Did you play all the guitar parts on the record?

I played 90% of the guitar on the record, but Ian [Perkins] he played some slide parts. He did some cool delayed stuff. If Im in Wilco, I might be Jeff and hes Nils.

"But funnily enough, on the first song [When You're Ready] the whole thing was fingerpicked and then I was like, I dont know because fingerpicking it makes it sounds like the train beat thing and my drummer, the hero, Kurt Leon said, Give me the guitar, you should strum it like this because the guitar is like a dad playing the song to his kid on the side of the bed. Dads dont know how to play guitar, theyre just goofing so they would play it like this and it sounded perfect, so I said, "Go play it."

"So the first song on the record, thats not me, thats Kurt. Which is hilarious because I did all this work and then Kurt does it!

Its good that youre open to that though

Youve just got to get the best whatevers best

The lyrics to When You're Ready really hit me as a father, but also, youve always kept the parent part of your life private, understandably, so was it hard for you to share that song?

It was but I think the whole record is about that. Ive always had this wall that Ive put up. Even the most personal songs Ive written before I never opened up all the way. I guess its maybe the age or the place Im at in life where I think, Im just going to do this and Im not worried about hiding anything. I dont care well its not that I dont care because I do care, but Im ok with being uncomfortable. Im ok with being exposed. This is how I feel about my daughter, it might not be the most politically-charged world-changing song but to me it is, because I feel that way about my kids.

"I wish I was cool but I dont mind that Im not"

Part of that place you've arrived could be the audience youve built theres a trust there. What kind of audience do you feel you have now?

I think thats my entire audience now outsiders. People that like punk but never fitted in with the punks, people that likes Americana but never fit in with the Americana. I feel that my audience is built by people who never quite fitted in. Because thats what I am.

"I made a joke one time that apparently my band was cool in 2009 but I didnt know that, nobody told me and by the time I realised that it was too late, it had gone. So I never got to enjoy the cool factor but I always felt that I was a day late, and not in and I didnt know.

Now its not even like I dont care, I totally care I wish I was cool but I dont mind that Im not. And Im actually comfortable not trying to be cool. The last thing I want to be is in my 40s and trying to squeeze myself into the pants I was in during my 20s. To be thats the most distasteful thing I could do.

It feels like 21 Days is a song that's already connecting with people

That song came from a lot of therapy. That song was completely influenced by my therapist.

A lot of people will listen and think, that song is about quitting smoking. But its not?

Somebody wrote, Its about quitting smoking and thats about 10% of what it is. Its about changing your life and when it says 21 days til I dont miss you the you is you, its the old you or its whoever youre running away from. Whether thats an addiction for me it was mostly about mental health. Im running away from the me that I dont want to be. Im leaving that behind and becoming which is extremely difficult to do when youre trying to change your life, its difficult to do, it makes major commitment and change.

That song, I tell you, it was like building a house one screw at a time"

Musically, it feels like something that could easily have become a full-blown rock song

It was a full on rock song. This is what happened with that song I sent the demo to Peter. Everyone loved the song, they loved the demo of it.

He goes, Im not sure I know what to do with this kind of music. And I said, What do you mean?

He said: I like it and I can appreciate it but I dont know what to do with it, I dont know how to produce this.

I said: I dont know what youre talking about this is the best song.

He said, Look, Im not trying to tell you I dont like the song, Im just saying I might not be the guy to produce this song the way you have it right now. I dont know if I can do this."

I went back and told him I might leave this song off the record. But it meant too much lyrically. I didnt know about the music but lyrically it meant too much. So I said to my wife, Ive got to figure this out.

So I sat down at the piano and it took me weeks. For most people the end of the story would be, I sat down at the piano by myself and it worked. No, I sat down at the piano and slammed the piano closed and stormed out, walking around the backyard frustrated, pacing around.

It took me weeks until one night the kids just went to bed and I said to my wife, Can you just sit down and I know this the 15th time Ive played this song but what about like this? Tried it and my wife and I were both thats the way it should go. And then I recorded it just like that. It was so bare with just one guitar. I said to Peter, How about now? He said, Thats cool lets try it like that. But he didnt say thats it. It was a good start."

That song, I tell you, it was like building a house one screw at a time. It was crazy. It was so difficult. I was belting it, really singing it. But [Peter] said, At first, youve got to sing it quiet talk it. But I responded, Thats what you do with The National, I dont want to be like that. But he said, you dont sound like The National, you sound like you. So I did it. We recorded it with me yelling and recorded it with me quiet and I swear to you it hit harder when it was quiet. And I was like, I dont believe this just happened. But that really opened my eyes to a lot of things. Big time.

With Peter, were you were sending him demos before going into the studio so he was getting an idea of what youll need to do when you get there?

Yes but with Peter, you send him a demo and he listens to the song and the structure but he does not tell you his ideas. He just starts going for it. Youve kind of got to go, Thats cool. Thats too far because that man would make a wild record if I just let him go. Hes very talented but hes straight up mix of Pink Floyd with Brian Wilson. He goes for it. Its wild.

Even at your level you have to work hard at songwriting still

It was hard, you have to work at it all the time.

Is it tempting to throw a song away when you have to rework it to such a degree?

There was one called I Dont Mind When Im With You that I loved. That song was triple the speed, same with Lonely For You Only. Very fast songs. But something about the lyrics and there was one little bit of the melody, it was like a hook that was in me. Not a musical hook, like a fish hook. I kept pulling me. I tried to throw those songs away two or three times because I had other songs. There was something pulling me so I had to keep clawing away. And honestly, it took months.

The only song that came out quick was When Youre Ready. Vincent took forever. I wrote 20 versions of that song lyrically. It was forever."

Vincent is written from a female perspective, like Here Comes My Man

Yeah, and Vincent was my attempt at writing 100% fiction, so it was actually based off a couple of stories I heard in the news. Not current, a while ago. So it was stewing around in my mind and what happened was I watched the documentary on Nick Cave and he was talking about the album Murder Ballads and I got to thinking about Nick Cave and Bruce Springsteen, writing the Nebraska songs. I thought, Im going to try and write a fictional song fictional in details but 100 per cent non fictional in emotion.

Honestly, that was what the thing was moving to me, because everybody knows what that feels like to be tired of a situation thats really bad. How do you get out of it? In fiction you can do anything, you dont have to follow the laws and the rules of what youre supposed to do.

That song started from the first lyric too. I was listening to Dolly Parton and I thought of people who were named after songs because my daughter is named after the song Layla. I was always wondering, I wonder if they hate that? Do people named after songs hate the song theyre named after or can they embrace it? Im not sure and I feel bad because I did it.

"I chuckled to myself and said, "My named is Jolene, but I hate that song", and I thought that was pretty funny then I thought, oh thats dark. I sat at the piano and worked on it and had that first little section; I was baptised in a river when I was young. And thats all I had for months.

Then I just wrote 100 different versions because Id never done a fiction song. So in my head I wondered, what happens? I had to figure out not what I wanted to happen but what is the character telling me happens. And not only that but what makes sense in four minutes, and it was hard. Now, its so rewarding because its one of my favourite songs on the record.

So that song started with a lyric, is the process of songwriting kind of random in terms of the initial inspiration for you?

Yes, sometimes its like a riff that Im fooling around with, sometimes its a lyrics, sometimes a title. Sometimes I just start fishing; I sit down, play and start singing stuff. A lot of times its a drum beat that I hear.

You mentioned the piano impacting your chord approach, does that instrument help get you out of comfort zones as a writer?

Sure but at the same time I will say this though. I started to learn all these different chord progressions because Ive always been I / V / vi / IV a lot, and variations of that. But you know, I like that chord progression still. And I said to Peter, "I learned all this jazz stuff so should I be using these chords?" And hes like, No because its not sad, use the sad chords. Thats whats good.

"It kind of gave me permission. I didnt care, Im using the chords I want to use. Even the song Nocturne by Julian Lage, its B flat minor to A flat and then D flat. Its the same chord progression I use but its like this really fancy jazz song but its kind of the same thing.

Do you think theres this element of being at peace with that being a core part of your style, something you can experiment with there's this core?

I think its a thing thats my thing. If you boiled it down its the melodies of those chords. Well some people might say to me, well thats boring you used the same chords all the times. I think thats pretty creative Ive written like 95 songs with similar chords. I dont know about you but I think Im doing alright. You know what Im saying? I know what the chords are, Ive got the VIIth, the Ixs, the XIs over the suspends but I dont care.

I read in an interview with Tom Petty, a guitar player came up to him, a friend of his, and said, Ive got this cool chord and I used it in a song. And Tom Petty said, Why? Do you know why that chords not been used in a song before? Because its not good. Fair enough, because you know what works? G, D and C. So leave it to Tom Petty, bless him.

The song Hard Feelings are you channeling Knopfler there?

That is my exclusive attempt to write a Mark Knopfler-covering-Tom Petty song. Because it has that feeling. That song took me two years to write. I had the bits of it but I needed to keep going.

"That song is so funny because it uses the same chords that were talking about but I don't think it repeats more than twice. Its constantly moving forwards. When I played the piano on that song I thought, this sucks its so hard. The patterns of the chord cycle only happen twice then it moves, throughout the whole song. Like many of Marks songs it sounds so simple but its so not simple.

You couldnt have written a song like that two years ago?Not a chance. Thats why I stalled two years ago, theres a song two years ago that wasnt even done I just stopped.

Moving on to gear, were there any pedals that proved useful in the overdub stages?

We had cool stuff. We were in Connecticut so Analog Man is right there and we hit up Mike [Piera] and drove to his shop a couple of times and picked up all this stuff. So I had this King Of Tone that I always have with me.

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"Ive never done anything like it but Ive also never got such a good result" Brian Fallon goes in-depth on the making of new album Local...