This week, cohosts Emily Jane Fox and JoeHagan talk to Tim OBrien, executive editor of Bloomberg Opinion and author of TrumpNation, about the latest obstacle in the Department of Justices investigation into Donald Trumps handling of top secretdocuments. Thedecision by Judge Aileen Cannon, a Trump appointee, to appoint a special master to review the documents and slow the investigation, reeks of politics, says OBrien. Does this send a signal to other Trumpappointees that you should carry the bag for your handler? he asks.

Despite Judge Cannons recent ruling, the reality is this is a very robust and existentially threatening investigation to Donald Trump, OBrien adds, and Trumps political power in the coming midterms is clearly on the wane. Can the law prevail over politics?

Also in this episode: Hagan talks to Edward Buckles Jr., director of the searing HBO documentaryKatrina Babies. Afilmmaker from New Orleans who was 13 at the time ofHurricane Katrina, Buckles explores the tragic fallout on the lives of his friends and lovedones, most of whom never returned to their homes, part of an African American diaspora largely ignored after the tragedy faded from the American consciousness.

Excerpts from podcast interview have been edited for clarity.

Joe Hagan: Judge Eileen Cannon of the Southern District of Florida acquiesced to Trumps demand that there be a special master to look at these top secret documents and discern whether this needs to go forward or how it can go forward. Whats your interpretation of that ruling?

Tim OBrien: Well, first and foremost, Judge Cannons a Trump appointee. So it has to be seen through that lens. Does this send a signal to other Trump appointees that you should would carry the bag for your handler? But even putting that aside, she essentially introduced an executive privilege argument into an attorney-client privilege matter. And without getting too boring and technical, thats incredibly important, because the executive privilege argument would be viable if Trump was still president, and hes not president; Joe Bidens president. So executive privilege issues shouldnt apply to legal rationale for deciding what the federal government does, and doesnt have to do around Donald Trumps documents. Attorney-client privilege is always viable because hes a private citizen, like anyone else. So I think Judge Cannon has now introduced this red herring into this debate about how the Justice Department should proceed. And I think it represents a fraying of judicial independence. It represents a fraying of acute jurisprudence. And I think its a problem. Does that mean its going to derail everything? I think it slows down the Justice Department. But the reality is, this is a very robust and existentially threatening investigation of Donald Trump. And for all of the talk all the time about how Donald Trump has spent a lifetime getting away with it, he has never been subjected to the kind of legal scrutiny and the armada of different investigations that are arrayed against him right now. He may get past these, that that could happen. But hes not used to being where he is right now. And hes not used to the investigators having a clear sense of purpose like these investigators do. Robert Mueller was all over the map. The two impeachments were politicized. These are pure legal investigations with an evidentiary trail and determined prosecuted around that. And he has the DEA team, as his lawyers.

Emily Jane Fox: Tim, why do you think Trump would have taken these documents in the first place?

OBrien: You know, its amazing to me, the degree to which the GOP, the propagandists at Fox and Donald Trump, still have an ability to get people to focus on the wrong thing. So when the Mar-a-Lago raid first happened, the whole thing was, you know, was the FBI acting out out of bounds and, and then it became all of these different conversations about how that might have occurred, when the core, simple thing here to remember and focus on is Why did Donald Trump take what he took from the White House and what does it mean? And I cant get into his head. And until we know what exactly he took, we wont have a full answer to those questions.

But I think, as you know, all the good work youve done on his family, in your own work, Emily, is that there arent complex motivations for the Trumps, theyre grifters. And I think part of it is Donald Trump is a seven-year-old, grown old. And he really wanted to be able to keep his model of the mock-up of Air Force One and the Time magazine cover, and he was gonna whine if we didnt get that stuff. And who cares. Theres no national security issue there.

The two that matter to me in terms of motivation. One is just money. You know, he sees Jared Kushner getting $2 billion from the Saudis and Steve Mnuchin getting $2 billion from the Saudis. And Donald Trump wants his $2 billion, or whatever that number is, at a time when his business empire is saddled with debt. And he's in businesses that have been ravaged by COVID. So was there stuff in there he wanted to sell quite possibly. Would he have sold nuclear secrets to raise some money? Sure, he could do that. I dont know that he did. But we have to really button down whether theres a national security threat here. And then I think the other thing is reputation laundering and covering up an evidentiary trail. What was there stuff in that document, that in the documents that he took, that presented a story he didnt want told about any number of things?

Read more:

Judge Cannon Has Introduced a Red Herring: TrumpNation Author Tim OBrien Breaks Down the Former Presidents Legal Nightmare - Vanity Fair