Transcript: The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, 10/19/21 – MSNBC

Summary

The January 6 committee unanimously voted to advance Steve Bannon criminal contempt referral to full House. Democratic Congressman Pete Aguilar of California is interviewed. President Joe Biden along with Vice President Kamala Harris and Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen held two separate meetings with Democrats this afternoon. Two election officials accused of undermining election security are now banned from overseeing Colorado`s November election. A judge has ruled in favor of Colorado Secretary of State Jena Griswold.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Yeah, when you go there, it will be the first one of the night. I don`t know how I know that. I was watching every minute of your show and interview with Bennie Thompson, which was so important. One of the things that was said tonight was something that I don`t think was quite so clear before and that was when Liz Cheney said that the resistance, the Trump resistance to this investigation and to this particular subpoena actually indicates that Donald Trump was involved in the run-up to the preparation for and what they believe may be the conspiracy to attack the Capitol.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, "TRMS": And that that is what -- that is the common thread that explains the resistance in terms of what people aren`t handing over and what people are refusing to talk about. I asked Thompson tonight, Chairman Thompson tonight whether or not they sort of seen enough already in their investigation to know to have found things that the public doesn`t know to have found things that will surprise us or indeed shock us in terms of how things went on January 6th and he said oh, yes, the public will be shocked. We have found stuff that will surprise you and then for Liz Cheney to have said that tonight, I feel like they`re starting to give indications where the investigation is going.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, and I`m hoping we can find more about the cooperation they already had. The chairman mentioned that in his statement in the committee tonight about how Bannon is the only one so okay, what does that mean -- what is Mark Meadows doing exactly if Bannon is the only one resisting in the way he is resisting and we have Pete Aguilar, a member of the committee joining us for that discussion. That`s one of the things we`ll see what they can and can`t tell us about that. Because obviously, they are trying to contain how much of the information gets out at this point.

MADDOW: Yes, and rightfully so. They`re going to present their findings when they have findings to present. But as they present the subpoena to Bannon, for example, again, rightfully talking about the fact he`s the one engaging and making clear time is of the essence. They won`t do this fast, they won`t be delayed. They will force this fast.

The vote in the House is Thursday. That`s even faster than we thought it would be. So they`re full steam ahead. This is not something that is plodding along.

O`DONNELL: So, of course, you did your homework and you discovered the last time there was such prosecution for this back in the 1980s. By the way, the name of the show could be "Rachel Maddow`s Homework with Rachel Maddow." That`s one --

(LAUGHTER)

O`DONNELL: That`s one show title that I don`t know, should be on the list. Should think about.

Anyway, so it was great because I vaguely remembered it when you said it but then you said for me, the magic sentence of it was eight days between the time the house voted for the prosecution and the Justice Department actually brought charges in eight days, and those of us who were around back then and in the 1970s during the Watergate investigation, we keep saying all of these processes used to be much faster. Things that happened in weeks and months now used to literally happen in days. And that`s an example.

MADDOW: Yes, that`s -- and, you know, it will be an independent judgment by the U.S. attorney in D.C. to decide whether or not to bring these charges and nobody should think they can inflect that decision, but theoretically, if the U.S. attorney decides to go ahead with this, convening a grand jury or going to a grand jury that`s already empanelled and asking for an indictment in a case like this, shouldn`t become flex. He`s trying to assert executive privilege when the only person that could invoke executive privilege, the current sitting president of the United States says it doesn`t apply here, I`m not the one invoking this.

It`s a fairly simple matter if they decide to do it. I don`t know why it should take more than eight days. We don`t know how the Justice Department will be inclined here, how the attorney general might instruct this U.S. attorney`s office how to handle this.

[22:05:03]

I mean, if you`re Bannon, you`re probably playing the odds that nothing bad will happen to you because you seem to skate when he`s been indicted before but, you know, this is serious stuff and it could move fast if at least on paper, there is no reason to think it couldn`t move fast.

O`DONNELL: The other -- before you go to hit the grand slam, the other great thing that of course in the vote in the 1980s, the vote was unanimous in the House every single Republican member of the House voted for criminal prosecution of a Republican president, a Reagan administration official and there was just no question of course, if she`s going to defy this subpoena, of course we all vote for them.

MADDOW: Yeah. I mean, the unanimous vote, I mean, that was Congress in a non-partisan way standing up for the power of Congress to actually conduct investigations and to be obeyed. And that I feel like those days are passed, but maybe they`ll come back.

O`DONNELL: You got to go, Rachel. They need you.

MADDOW: They do.

O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.

MADDOW: Bye, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

Before the committee voted tonight, the Republican Vice Chair of the Committee Liz Cheney began her remarks by outlining the case against Steve Bannon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): On January 6th, a mob breached the security perimeter of our Capitol, assaulted and injured more than 140 police officers, engaged in hand to hand violence over an extended period and invaded and occupied the United States Capitol building, all in an effort to halt the lawful counting of electoral votes and reverse the results of the 2020 election.

The day before this all occurred, on January 5th, Mr. Bannon publicly professed knowledge that, quote, all hell is going to break loose tomorrow, end quote. He forecast that the day would be, quote, extraordinarily different than what most Americans expected.

He said to his listeners and his viewers, quote, so many people said if I was in a revolution, I would be in Washington. Well, he said, this is your time in history.

Based on the committee`s investigation, it appears that Mr. Bannon had substantial advanced knowledge of the plans for January 6th and likely had an important role in formulating those plans. Mr. Bannon was in the war room at the Willard on January 6th. He also appears to have detailed knowledge regarding the president`s efforts to sell millions of Americans the fraud that the election was stolen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: The question before the committee tonight was, should they recommend criminal prosecution of Steve Bannon? And each member answered that question in the role call vote.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLERK: Ms. Cheney?

CHENEY: Aye.

CLERK: Ms. Lofgren?

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Yes.

CLERK: Ms. Lofgren? Aye.

Mr. Schiff?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Schiff. Aye.

Mr. Aguilar?

REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-CA): Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Aguilar, aye.

Mrs. Murphy?

REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FL): Aye.

CLERK: Mrs. Murphy, aye.

Mr. Raskin?

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Raskin, aye.

Mrs. Luria?

REP. ELAINE LAURIA (D-VA): Aye.

CLERK: Mrs. Luria, aye.

Mr. Kinzinger?

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Kinzinger, aye.

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Has the chair recorded?

CLERK: Mr. Chairman, you are not recorded.

THOMPSON: I vote aye.

CLERK: Mr. Chairman, aye.

THOMPSON: The clerk will report the vote.

CLERK: Mr. Chairman, on this vote, there are nine ayes, zero noes.

THOMPSON: The motion is agreed to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Pete Aguilar of California. He`s a member of the January 6th Committee and he`s the vice chair of the House Democratic Caucus.

Thank you very much for joining us on this important night.

When did you realize that the committee was going to be unanimous on this vote?

AGUILAR: I think it became pretty clear once we started having the communication back and forth and the communications with the Bannon counsel was detailed in the report that we produced, but it became clear they would not be as corporative as many other witnesses that came forward and subpoenas as well. So, that`s when we knew this might be a little different.

O`DONNELL: What can you tell us about the cooperation of say, Mark Meadows that had a date where he was supposed to testify. He did not show up for the date but he is not being recommended for criminal prosecution?

[22:10:03]

AGUILAR: What I can tell you is that Mr. Meadows and Mr. Patel are engaged with the committee, that`s all I can say at this point. And so that`s why Mr. Bannon is the only one where you`re seeking to elevate to this level with the full House vote for contempt.

O`DONNELL: And the chairman mentioned tonight that you`ve reached out to dozens of witnesses. Does that mean you`ve interviewed dozens of witnesses already?

AGUILAR: There have been dozens of interviews that have taken place and there is coordination and discussion. There were also 11 other subpoenas that that were made public for individuals who played a role in the financing of -- and planning of the January 5th and January 6th rallies. We`re engaged with those individuals and it`s our expectation they will produce documents, as well as sit for interviews.

O`DONNELL: The chairman wasn`t sure at the point of time where you were voting tonight when the full House would vote on that. We now know the full House will vote day after tomorrow. The House has already a busy day pre -- that was already scheduled for tomorrow and you also apparently have to go through the rules committee on this.

Do you have to go through the rules committee before going to the House floor on Thursday?

AGUILAR: Yes, the chair and the vice chair will both present to the rules committee and if reported out favorably, it will go to the house floor on Thursday. That`s our understanding.

O`DONNELL: And so what is your expectation after Thursday? Rachel Maddow was reporting in the previous hour that the last time the House did this, it took eight days between the time the House voted to recommend a criminal prosecution and the Justice Department actually brought charges against a regular administration official. That passage of time was eight days.

AGUILAR: Well, that`s up to the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia and department of justice how fast they proceed. Our expectation is that they will follow the law and so after we pass this off of the House floor, the speaker will certify it. It will get transmitted over to the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia and the federal law is clear that that individual has a duty to bring it before a grand jury. And so that`s our expectation that it would follow the law and bring this to the grand jury.

So that`s what we hope the process that they follow will be on Thursday.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to the way Liz Cheney made this point about how the privilege argument appears to suggest that Donald Trump actually was personally involved. Let`s listen to the way she put this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: Mr. Bannon`s and Mr. Trump`s privilege arguments do however appear to reveal one thing. They suggest that President Trump was personally involved in the planning and execution of January 6th. And this committee will get to the bottom of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: What was your reaction to that point?

AGUILAR: It was a strong statement, it was a great statement and Representative Cheney, Vice Chair Cheney has been an amazing colleague to work with an the issues. She`s not going to be shy about calling it like she sees it.

And so, we`re going to continue to follow the leadership of her and the chairman as we guide through this process.

We`re in uncharted territory here. We know that. We have a duty and obligation to find out the truth. That`s all we`ve said we want.

We don`t bring any joy and the chairman talked about this. We don`t bring joy about taking this step. We hope people comply. We hope they feel the patriotic duty to comply with the lawful subpoena.

But if they don`t, there have to be consequences. And we promised the American people we would get to the bottom of what happened on January 6th. This is the next step to do that.

O`DONNELL: How can you get to the bottom of it without sending a subpoena to Donald Trump?

AGUILAR: Well, we`re going to take one step at a time. And so, this is where we are today. Upon every interview we take, we`ll continue to learn more details and we will unlock more issues that we will have to chase down and that will lead to more individuals who we have to interview.

That`s just going to be the process. It`s going to be an investigative process and we`re going to follow that game plan and we`re going to chase every lead as the chair and vice chair have said and to ultimately produce a report for the American public but we won`t get ahead of ourselves. We`re not going to be shy about doing that if warranted but we need to accomplish these few steps first.

O`DONNELL: So just to be clear, you`re not going to be shy about subpoenaing Donald Trump if it is warranted?

AGUILAR: We`re not going to be shy about subpoenaing anyone with knowledge of the events of January 5th and 6th and what led to the violent insurrection of the Capitol.

[22:15:07]

And so, that`s our posture. That`s our position. We`ll chase every lead wherever it goes.

O`DONNELL: Congressman Pete Aguilar, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.

AGUILAR: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: And joining us now is Daniel Goldman, the majority counsel for the first impeachment trial of Donald Trump. He`s also a former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. He is an MSNBC legal analyst.

And, Dan, I want to start with you on that Liz Cheney point where she says Mr. Bannon`s and Mr. Trump`s privilege arguments do appear to reveal they suggest that President Trump was personally involved in the planning and execution of January 6th. What was your reaction to that point?

DAN GOLDMAN, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: That`s a great point. It`s similar to what you would refer to as an adverse inference to someone who takes the Fifth Amendment in a civil case and basically the law is that you could use that assertion of the Fifth Amendment, you can`t use it against them in a criminal case but take an inference against them in a similar case.

It`s a similar idea in impeachment we said every time you obstruct, you are essentially admitting that you have inculpatory evidence. And that`s exactly what Liz Cheney is saying. She is saying you cannot assert executive privilege unless you have relevant information to our committee, which is investigating January 6th.

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Transcript: The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, 10/19/21 - MSNBC