We talked with Professor Gyrgy Schpflin about, among other things, the problems of migration, juridocracy, federalism, cultural Marxism and the future of the Union.
If we immediately grab the bull by the horns, dont you think that the European Union has strayed far from the values and ideals advocated by the founding fathers?
Yes, agreed, but would add that the problems that the founding fathers sought to solve were very different from what the EU faces today. What has been the central principle and justification for integration was conflict resolution by consent. The EU has largely given up on this principle and is now driven by the accumulation of power. I see this as dangerous, not least, because it reduces integration to a single factor that is pursued whether the consent is there or not.
Consent has emerged as a key issue in EU politics and we may well be at a turning point when it comes to defining democracy. The divide is between those who state that central to democracy is the consent of the governed, i.e. the sovereign people, as against those who insist that the heart of democracy is values, as defined by liberal politicians and the courts. The rise of political decision-making by otherwise unaccountable judges like the European Court of Justice transforms democracy into juristocracy. The Brexit vote is evidence that when a society feels deprived of political power, it will strike back (I write as someone who supported Remain, but fully accept the Brexit vote).
Marxism is in complete contradiction with European values, so how could the EU leadership celebrate the unveiling of the monument to Karl Marx on the bicentennial of his birth?
If you look at the recent transformation of European values ever more power to the EU they are not that far from Marxs idea of concentrating power to transform the world, structurally at any rate. And the EU, the symbolic Brussels, has come to believe that it has this transformative role legitimated by history. Salvationism has a long history in Europe. What is worrying is that the EU is subordinating what it can to this political monoculture. Let me add that in practice the process is nothing like as far-reaching as Marxism-Leninism (or Titoism for that matter). And, of course, communist parties are there in the European Parliament.
Would you agree with the claim that cultural Marxism is destroying the foundations of our European civilization?
Whether we like it or not, Marxism and other forms of both left and right radicalism are a part of the European tradition. But I wouldnt call it cultural Marxism, because there is a lot of Foucault in the mix, plus some thoughts taken from Rawls and Gramsci. Im enough of an optimist to think that European civilisation is resilient enough for its foundations to live on, maybe in an altered state. The signs of resistance are visible. There is an interesting revival of Roman Catholic thought in France, there is growing evidence that in Italy, France again and in Spain the younger generation sympathises with centre-right ideas. And, maybe most importantly, there is nationhood, whether civic or ethnic. The divide between Central Europe, where nationhood is seen as the necessary condition of freedom, and the West is growing.
Why is the Brussels Eurocracy so opposed to Hungary and Poland, which want to reform the judicial system and clean it of the debris that dates back to the times of communist totalitarianism?
Because the EU has been captured by the liberal left and these liberals understand that their best chance of imposing their values on Central Europe lies through juristocracy. Hungary and Poland are in the cross-hairs because they are quite explicit in the pursuit of their national conservative project.
Why does Brussels insist on supporting mass migration from the Third World, even though experience shows that it brings ghettoisation, increased crime and violence, cultural and religious conflicts, and the financial burden?
There is a labour market answer, that Western countries need cheap labour to do jobs that no one else will do. But more importantly, there is post-colonial guilt, which is absent in Central Europe. The West finds this inexplicable and refuses to accept the relevance of both the communist and the imperial past (Prussia, Russia, Ottomans, Austria-Hungary) as a central feature of the Central European memory. Somehow these imperial subjugations dont count.
Crucially, whereas the West was able (broadly speaking) to exit the trauma of the Second World War, this was and is not true of the communist ruled countries. And, thirdly, it is explained by universalism, that there is a single humanity and that it is Europes historic task to bring it together. This universalism has its roots in Christianity (equally in Islam), in Marxism and in the Enlightenment. Now that the Enlightenment legacy that science solves everything is in trouble, given that complexity theory undermines the Newtonian view of the world, the universalists prefer to ignore the evidence.
Brussels is working hard to impose a radical LGBT (and the rest of the alphabet) agenda on all members of the Union. What do you think is the cause and goal of this imposition?
Essentially because LGBT can be presented as a universal vulnerable minority. Note that the saliency of the issue is quite recent, its an easy issue to bring into politics and it means that other, equally vulnerable minorities, like the disabled, can be ignored. The protection of minorities is there in Article 2 of the Treaty, but the EU simply rejects national minorities as having anything to do with it look what happened to the Minority SafePack, a Citizens Initiative that received well over a million signatures, but was swept to one side by the Commission.
Do you not find it hypocritical that the EU, on the one hand, declares its commitment to human rights and cooperates with China, where people are tortured in camps on the basis of their ethnic, religious or political affiliation and even used as slave labour?
You can call it hypocritical, but it can equally be called pragmatism. Note that ignoring the fate of the Uighurs has a universalist logic. If the West were to adopt the Uighur cause, then why not other ethno-religious minorities that are badly treated?
You do not find it interesting that Brussels imposes centralization on the members, but at the first major test, ie. pandemic of the Chinese virus, the bureaucratic mastodon completely gave up, and each country had to deal with the pandemic on its own?
To be fair, the EU had no experience in health issues these are member state competence and when it came face to face with the Covid crisis, it made an almighty mess of it. The Commission had neither the human resources nor the infrastructure to deal with the pandemic. The EU tripped up on its own belief system, that more Europe is the answer to everything. The same is true of the 2008 financial crisis and migration (2015).
The leadership of the Union reacts sharply against any member that does not want to fully submit to their agenda; Poland, Hungary, and recently also Slovenia. They threaten with suspensions, blockade of financial resources, exclusion. Did Brexit not taught these people anything, they want the disintegration of the Union?
In truth, Brexit was a great relief to Brussels, because or so many people thought the absence of the UK would make it easier to pursue the federalist agenda. Poland, Hungary, actually Central Europe as a whole, are an unwelcome obstacle to that agenda. But note that there are anti-federalist member states in West, like Sweden, not to mention the approximately one-third or more of Western voters who are anti-federalist. I find the rise of Vox (Spain) or Chega (Portugal) fascinating in this context.
You have been a Member of the European Parliament for a long time. Can you tell us how strong the influence of lobby groups is on the functioning of this body?
Im the wrong person to ask because I mostly worked in non-legislative committees (Constitution, Foreign Affairs), so I was not worth lobbying. But anecdotally, yes, there is endless lobbying, just as there is in the Commission. And these lobbies are accountable to no one. The same is true of the Brussels NGO-think tank ecosystem.
Finally, can you tell us your view on the future of the European Union?
Starting with my first answer democracy at the crossroads and the decline of conflict resolution I see major disagreements ahead. The Single Market is beneficial, though much less for the economically weaker Central Europeans, but political clashes will not be easy to resolve as long as the liberal-federalist current holds sway. Can Europe be further integrated without the consent of a sizeable minority? I would say no, unless it is pursued coercively the signs of this coercion exist and are hard to ignore. The countries of Central Europe have a very recent experience of coercion and reject it.
In this connection, the Declaration of 16 parties of the 2 July on the future of the EU is of considerable significance, because it offers a clear, alternative basis for the integration of Europe, one where the member states play an active role and supervisory institutions can check the Brussels federalists. Crucially, the centre-right insists that democracy is about consent and consent cannot be overridden by values. A system ruled by values undermines its own pluralism and is well on the way to becoming an oligarchy. The left may well dismiss this as populism, but the commitment to the superiority of democratic voting to elite rule (through juristocracy) is the heart of democracy as it has emerged in Europe in the last two-three centuries.
To quote the Declaration, the use of political structures and the law to create a European superstate and new social structures is a manifestation of the dangerous and invasive social engineering known from the past, which must provoke legitimate resistance.
The elections to the European Parliament in 2024 could well turn out to be a watershed in the history of Europe, giving consent a qualitatively stronger role.
*Bogdan Sajovic is a journalist at Demokracija Magazine
**Gyrgy Schpflin (b. Budapest 1939) was formerly professor of politics at the university of London, a Fidesz member of the European Parliament (2004-2019) and is currently Senior Research Fellow at iASK (Kszeg) and at the Public Service University Budapest. His most recent book is The European Polis (Ludovika, 2021)
This interview appeared for the first time in Demokracija Magazine in Slovenia and can be accessed here:https://demokracija.eu/world/gyorgy-schopflin-the-eu-tripped-up-on-its-own-belief-system-that-more-europe-is-the-answer-to-everything/
More here:
- 2024 Lok Sabha Elections: Need to pitch for Federalism and Special Status for Goa - Herald Goa - April 6th, 2024 [April 6th, 2024]
- 1999 constitution and the quest for true federalism - Nigerian Observer - April 6th, 2024 [April 6th, 2024]
- Federalism is not Apartheid The Mail & Guardian - Mail and Guardian - April 6th, 2024 [April 6th, 2024]
- Modi has delivered confrontational federalism: Congress | Siddaramaiah highlights 'injustices to K'taka | Inshorts - Inshorts - April 6th, 2024 [April 6th, 2024]
- Lebanese Pro-Federalism Activist Alfred Riachi: Prior To October 7, The Standard Of Living In Gaza Was Pretty ... - Middle East Media Research... - February 22nd, 2024 [February 22nd, 2024]
- The Potential Impact of 'Disease X' on Federalism in the U.S. - Medriva - February 22nd, 2024 [February 22nd, 2024]
- 'People's Charter' Puts Federalism at The Heart of Myanmar's Democratic Future - The Irrawaddy - February 22nd, 2024 [February 22nd, 2024]
- Siddaramaiah vs Modi: The 'cess-y' mess in fiscal federalism - Deccan Herald - February 22nd, 2024 [February 22nd, 2024]
- Ideas Of India: Devendra Fadnavis To Take A Deep Dive Into Role Of Collaborative Federalism In Nation-Building - ABP Live - February 22nd, 2024 [February 22nd, 2024]
- Potential of federalism should be realized: PM Dahal - The Himalayan Times - February 22nd, 2024 [February 22nd, 2024]
- Sensible education policy needed - The Kathmandu Post - October 9th, 2023 [October 9th, 2023]
- Both cooperative federalism and competitive federalism have their ... - Insights IAS - August 18th, 2023 [August 18th, 2023]
- Federalism to poll promises: South India CMs bring up host of local ... - South First - August 18th, 2023 [August 18th, 2023]
- Justice Mitchell (Alabama): "The New Bar Exam Puts DEI Over ... - Reason - May 20th, 2023 [May 20th, 2023]
- Season of instability - The Kathmandu Post - May 20th, 2023 [May 20th, 2023]
- Trump Indictment Tests Congress's Role in State Investigations - Bloomberg Law - May 20th, 2023 [May 20th, 2023]
- Big Business' New Plan Would Create Fifty New Immigration Policies - Federation for American Immigration Reform - May 20th, 2023 [May 20th, 2023]
- Senator decries move to block bill loosening Wisconsin abortion law - Milwaukee Journal Sentinel - May 20th, 2023 [May 20th, 2023]
- "Illegally buying time": Congress leader Abhishek Singhvi chastises ... - ANI News - May 20th, 2023 [May 20th, 2023]
- Baby Ninth Amendments Part IV: All the Rights but Not ALL the Rights - Reason - May 20th, 2023 [May 20th, 2023]
- Amid the Fight for Myanmar, Federalism Rises from the Grass Roots - United States Institute of Peace - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Lesson from Karnataka respect states and India's federalism - Deccan Herald - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Dr. Paul Nolette named director of Les Aspin Center for Government ... - Marquette Today - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Sen. Cramer Welcomes ND Witnesses, Discusses Water ... - Kevin Cramer - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Utilities, Transmission, and the Grid: An Interview with Ari Peskoe - Brown Political Review - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Six months after elections, provincial governments are still incomplete - The Kathmandu Post - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- NON-FICTION: WHY FEDERALISM ENDURES IN PAKISTAN ... - DAWN.com - May 6th, 2023 [May 6th, 2023]
- Justice Scalia's Unpublished Dissent in Kelo v. City of New London - Reason - May 6th, 2023 [May 6th, 2023]
- Citizens, civil society hold the ruling party, BJP to account ... - SabrangIndia - May 6th, 2023 [May 6th, 2023]
- ED Proposes Title IX Athletics Rule Requiring Participation Based ... - The Federalist Society - May 6th, 2023 [May 6th, 2023]
- The Mysterious Case of the Imposition of Article 355 in Manipur - The Wire - May 6th, 2023 [May 6th, 2023]
- Non-BJP State Governments Not Exercising Accountability, Allowing ... - Daily Excelsior - May 6th, 2023 [May 6th, 2023]
- Two years of Stalin government in Tamil Nadu: Two steps forward - Times of India - May 6th, 2023 [May 6th, 2023]
- What is the issue of gubernatorial inaction in the legislative process ... - Insights IAS - April 29th, 2023 [April 29th, 2023]
- World Bank Approves $100 Million to Strengthen Nepal's Healthcare ... - ReliefWeb - April 29th, 2023 [April 29th, 2023]
- Canada's federal transfer payment system badly needs a tune-up - The Conversation - April 29th, 2023 [April 29th, 2023]
- 50 years of basic structure doctrine | Only safeguard against majoritarian govt: Sr Advocate Ramachandran - The Indian Express - April 29th, 2023 [April 29th, 2023]
- Federalism - Definition, Examples, Cases, processes - Legal Dictionary - February 20th, 2023 [February 20th, 2023]
- What is federalism? | State Policy Network - February 5th, 2023 [February 5th, 2023]
- UPSC Key- January 19, 2023: Learn about Annual Status of Education Report, Federalism and State Legislatures - The Indian Express - January 19th, 2023 [January 19th, 2023]
- Advantages and Disadvantages of Federalism American Government - January 6th, 2023 [January 6th, 2023]
- fiscal federalism | public finance | Britannica - December 26th, 2022 [December 26th, 2022]
- About ALEC - American Legislative Exchange Council - December 12th, 2022 [December 12th, 2022]
- Canadian federalism - Wikipedia - November 23rd, 2022 [November 23rd, 2022]
- U.P. bags top honours at PMAY-U Awards 2021 - The Hindu - November 23rd, 2022 [November 23rd, 2022]
- Political Line sc views on conversions rajiv convicts and federalism and more - The Hindu - November 21st, 2022 [November 21st, 2022]
- Byron Williams: The court is poised to rewrite federalism - Winston-Salem Journal - October 17th, 2022 [October 17th, 2022]
- Why Hindi may set the tone for 2024 - Deccan Herald - October 17th, 2022 [October 17th, 2022]
- A Myanmar roadmap: Charting the path to federal democracy - International IDEA - October 17th, 2022 [October 17th, 2022]
- Next generation of reforms should focus on reducing cost of doing business - Economic Times - October 17th, 2022 [October 17th, 2022]
- Nigeria And The Intrigues Of Insecurity -By Kene Obiezu - Opinion Nigeria - October 17th, 2022 [October 17th, 2022]
- Trudeau's aggressive federalism may leave Ottawa weaker than before - The Globe and Mail - October 15th, 2022 [October 15th, 2022]
- What is Federalism? | CSF - October 15th, 2022 [October 15th, 2022]
- Kerala Against Hindi Imposition; Terms Recommendations Attack on Federalism and Diversity of Nation - NewsClick - October 15th, 2022 [October 15th, 2022]
- 2023: Well Vote for Candidate Committed to Federalism, Diversity, Says UPU - THISDAY Newspapers - October 15th, 2022 [October 15th, 2022]
- Attorney General Knudsen fights Biden administration rule requiring states to reach net-zero highway emissions - Montana Department of Justice - October 15th, 2022 [October 15th, 2022]
- How Scotland can learn from Quebec's third way on constitution - HeraldScotland - October 15th, 2022 [October 15th, 2022]
- Federalism and Why Presidents Fail - THISDAY Newspapers - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- Vedanta and the missing spirit of federalism - The New Indian Express - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- Federalism Most Suited Idea For India In View Of Its Diversity, Centralising Whole Things Will Lead To... - Live Law - Indian Legal News - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- Urging the Use of One Federal Decision Rule to Speed Up Bipartisan Infrastructure Law Projects - Kevin Cramer - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- Constitution Day 2022: Celebrating the right to govern ourselves - Yellowhammer News - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- From Augusta Constitution Day: What does it mean to you? - Press Herald - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- Explained | The office of the Governor: its origins, powers, and controversies - The Hindu - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- Geography Professional Speaker Series kicks off with alumnus from Ohio EPA on Sept. 23 - Ohio University - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- Vector-borne diseases trouble Nepal every year as there is not a single entomologist - Online Khabar (English) - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- The Gujarat factor in the development project - Hindustan Times - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- The downslide in federal relations - The Indian Express - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- Competition between states to attract investment will boost Indias economy - Moneycontrol - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- For state of the nation, look at states of the nation: Niti Aayogs new chief says it will help states learn - Times of India - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- Letters to the Editor: Queen injected vitality, vigour into lives of many - The Kingston Whig-Standard - September 22nd, 2022 [September 22nd, 2022]
- Climate action that runs on cooperative federalism - The Hindu - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- The spirit of federalism - The News International - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- Javier Perez Sandoval Receives the 2022 William Anderson Award - - Political Science Now - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- A new Constitutional Convention is a very bad idea | Opinion - Knoxville News Sentinel - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- Rodney Hero Receives the 2022 Barbara Sinclair Lecture Award - - Political Science Now - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- Department of the Interior, Fish and Wildlife Service: Migratory Bird Hunting; 20222023 Seasons for Certain Migratory Game Birds - Government... - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- Increasing Threat To Federalism From Centrally Sponsored Schemes- Need To Form A Federal Front - Countercurrents.org - September 3rd, 2022 [September 3rd, 2022]
- Breakenridge: Supporting federalism is the only way Alberta can be a partner in LNG exports - Calgary Herald - September 3rd, 2022 [September 3rd, 2022]
- Two tools for tracking the American Rescue Plans local and national impacts - Brookings Institution - September 3rd, 2022 [September 3rd, 2022]