Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to a special interview for The Wire, supported by Glenlivet Books. Today, we present an exclusive interview from Islamabad on India-Pakistan relations. My guest is the Pakistan prime ministers advisor on national security and strategic policy planning, Moeed Yusuf. This is Dr. Yusufs first interview to the Indian media, its also the first interview by any official in Pakistan after the constitution changes in Jammu and Kashmir in August 2019.
Dr. Yusuf, lets start with August 2019. Why is Pakistan so worked up by the internal constitutional changes in Jammu and Kashmir? First of all, this is a strictly internal Indian matter its of no concern to Pakistan and secondly, youre reported to be attempting something very similar in Gilgit Baltistan.
Moeed Yusuf: Thank you for having me on your show, Karan. So, lets take these separately because GB is a separate issue, Ill come to that. As far as the 5th of August, 2019 is concerned, quite frankly, India scored an own-goal. You know, there was never a doubt what the Kashmiris of occupied Kashmir believed in what they thought of India but, if there was any doubt left, its gone now.
Dont accept what Im saying; Farooq Abdullah came to your programme very recently I heard him, what did he say? No Kashmiri sees him or herself as Indian, theyd much rather be ruled by Chinese of course, he couldnt say Pakistan, he has to survive in India but, the Chinese. What does the ICJ report saying? What is Yashwant Sinhas report saying? The world is calling India out. Karan, thats the reality. Kashmiris cant bear the thought of being Indian. Kashmiri Hindustan se nafrat kartein hain, Karan and, when thats the reality, what internal arrangement are you talking about?
KT: But see, youre confusing two things. Whatever the Kashmiri feeling toward India may be is another matter; but what has happened
MY: No, no! *chuckles*
KT: is an internal constitutional change. It doesnt affect Pakistan in any way, it doesnt affect the UN referendum or plebiscite requirement in any way. Its internal its simply a constitutional, administrative measure and precisely the same thing is being
MY: Let me correct you, Karan.
KT: talked about for
MY: Let me correct.
KT: Gilgit Baltistan.
MY: Let me correct you. If Indias taking a stance that its actions of August 5th a permanent change to the territory which is disputed if India is arguing that a forced domicile law, change of demography of that territory, is not against the UN Charter, well, India is then priding itself at being a rogue state, Karan. Let me tell you why. The UN Charter and the UN resolutions are very clear; Indias never obeyed them, but now you have formally stated youre going to violate them. And, let me also tell you, your foreign minister was very recently I think last year, perhaps in the US. I heard him say that India will now resolve all its problems unilaterally. So, let me tell you whats happening, its very important
KT: Let me come back to this point
MY: Just give me one second.
KT: Let me come back
MY: Karan, one second
KT: One quick point
MY: Let me just finish
KT: You made
MY: Karan, just let me finish
KT: a point of talking
MY: No, no, no
KT: about demographic changes. Pakistan has been making demographic changes in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, by bringing in Punjabi settlers, for decades
MY: No
KT: At the moment, what demographic changes happen, its only made possible by the domicile law and, secondly, this is equally important if you can change the administrative structure of Gilgit Baltistan, India can certainly do the same in Jammu and Kashmir.
MY: Karan. Karan, I told you Ill come to Gilgit Baltistan but let me just finish this topic. You know, there are three levels you know, I have a background in scholarship. There are three levels at which the state can operate in the international community of nations. Theres the multilateral international, which is the UN we know what India thinks of the UN resolutions, we know what India said about the plebiscite after going to the UN itself and then pulling back from it. The second level is bilateral; for years, for decades since 1972 Shimla, India told the world its a bilateral matter well use Shimla. What happened on the 5th of August? A unilateral decision that Shimla explicitly says you cannot do. And dont take my words for it, take A.G. Nooranis words what did he say in a recent article? The foul deeds of August 5th destroyed the Shimla agreement, or the Shimla pact, totally. And the third level is unilateral; youve done something unilateral, when you did something unilateral you had to bring in a 180,000 troops, lie to the world that there was a terrorist threat, and then you perpetrated Indian government perpetrated terrorism on the 5th of August
KT: Can I respond?
MY: And then, a year later
KT: Can I respond?
MY: You had to impose curfew
KT: Dr. Yusuf
MY: And when you say, Karan, that the
KT: You must let me respond
MY: wishes of the people dont matter, thats where you go wrong.
KT: You began, first of all
MY: All that matters is the wishes of the people.
KT: Dr. Yusuf, you must let me respond. You began, first of all, by referring to the UN requirements of a plebiscite that is conditioned by a Pakistani withdrawal which didnt happen. So, lets be honest
MY: *chuckles*
KT: the first step was from your side, it didnt happen, thats why the plebiscite didnt never happened. Secondly, youre talking about the world believing that India has done the wrong thing with the exception of Turkey and Malaysia, no other country supports Pakistans position on 370. In fact, youre aware better than me that your attempt to create a special OIC meeting annoyed the Saudis and has strained your relationship with them. Actually, your obsession with Kashmir is becoming an own goal against yourself.
MY: Youre actually packing too many questions so Im going to write so I dont forget. So, Karan, first of all, here is where India goes wrong the only thing that matters is the wishes of the people because the UN resolutions are about the right to self-determination of the Kashmiris you dont believe me? And, Ill come to GB now you think what Im saying about occupied Kashmir is wrong? Even though everybody on your programme, in New York Times andThe Economist have said what they have to say? Lets hold a UN-administered plebiscite tomorrow. Lets bring the UN in, ask them what needs to be done
KT: Youre changing the subject
MY: Just do it.
KT: Were not talking about a UN plebiscite, were talking about the fact that Pakistan for reasons that have no warranty or justification is finding fault with Indias internal decision to change the constitutional arrangements in Jammu and Kashmir. Youve done the same in Gilgit Baltistan. Secondly, youve been changing the demography of P0K by bringing in Punjabi settlers for decades that hasnt happened in India.
MY: Yeah. So, let me come to the Pakistan side by adding just one sentence to what I was saying. The day India recognises that only the wishes of people of Kashmiris matter, this issue can be resolved. And today, Karan, I sit here, on the instructions of my prime minister, to talk to you about the future to talk to you how we can move forward, how we can get over our problems, not to litigate the past.
But since youre there, Gilgit Baltistan first of all, no decision has been made. What is happening in Gilgit Baltistan? Theres a public debate? Yes. Why is there a public debate? For the polar opposite reason to what is happening in Illegally Occupied Kashmir. Whats the reason? People of Gilgit Baltistan want to be fully integrated into Pakistan that is the reason of this public debate. Now
KT:Can I interrupt you?
MY: what is Pakistans response?
Indus River at Skardu in Gilgit-Baltistan region. Photo: Wikimedia Commons, CC BY-SA
KT: I have to interrupt you because youve made, I think, according to your papers, a factual error. Dawn, one of Pakistans best-known papers, on the 22nd of September, reported that at a meeting with several senior cabinet ministers present, members of the PPP, and the army chief a decision was taken to confer provincial status on Gilgit Baltistan. And that was confirmed to Dawn thereafter by your railway minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed and by the minister in charge of Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan affairs, Ali Amin Gandapur. Im quoting Dawn! They say the decision
MY: My friend. My friend, the proof is in the pudding. If it was so confirmed and so done, where is the act? Now, please let me finish this answer. You asked me two or three times, I want to clarify this. One, no decision has been made; two, there is a public debate the public debate is not being generated by the Government of Pakistan, its being generated by the people of Gilgit Baltistan. Theyve been saying this for two or three years now. What are they saying? We want to be fully integrated with Pakistan. Now, you tell me, Karan, if a people is not treated well, would they ever want that? Ive never heard the Kashmiri Muslims talk about this in the occupied territories
KT: Youre deliberately missing the point.
MY: Third, whatever
KT: Just as you say
MS: Sorry, Karan just let me finish.
KT: Just as you say the people of Gilgit Baltistan
MS: Karan, this is not fair.You ask me a question, you dont let me finish.
KT: people of Ladakh wanted to be separated from Jammu and Kashmir, they wanted union territory status as well, they asked for it.
MY: Karan, not fair. You asked me a question, let me finish please have the patience to hear me out. The third part of that is most important. Whatever decision is ultimately taken will be within the framework of the UN Security Council resolutions. If the resolutions bar permanent change of territorial status, there will be no permanent change and there may be no change. This is a debate, this is how democratic societies debate; democratic societies, by the way, Karan, do not bring in a 180,000 troops to change the status of a territory. Thats the difference between Pakistan and India right now.
KT: Let me repost to some of the things youve said. First of all, you said the change in Gilgit Baltistan is happening because the people have requested it that is equally true of Ladakh, the people of Ladakh have been wanting to be separated from Jammu and Kashmir for decades, they wanted union territory status, theyve now got it. So, the same criteria apply in both instances. Secondly
MY: Within the constraints of the UN.
KT: You have to let me finish, you have to let me finish.
MY: Sure.
KT: Secondly, you said that, in fact, what is happening is not a violation of the Shimla agreement in the case of Gilgit Baltistan, it is, you claim, a violation of Shimla in the case of Jammu and Kashmir. Actually, its the same thing happening on both sides; you are changing the nature of the
MY: But nothing has happened!
KT: Youre changing the nature
MY: Nothing has happened! 5th of August has happened. In Pakistan theres a public debate and one thing I can guarantee you on your programme whenever that debate settles, there will be no question of going outside any multilateral or bilateral framework that Pakistan has agreed to.
KT: Doctor, when you say nothing has happened
MY: Karan, thats the difference.
KT: youre forgetting the fact
MY: Karan, that
KT: that changing the provincial nature of Gilgit Baltistan is a campaign promise of Imran Khans party. Mr. Gandapur had said so, Im quoting Mr. Gandapur, just listen to the minister
MY: Yeah, you quote him.
KT: Our government has decided to deliver on the promise it made to the people there. Hes saying so, its a campaign promise
MY: The promise made to people in Gilgit Baltistan is to ensure that they get more development, even more rights within the framework of the UN Security Council resolution. If the UN Security Council resolutions allow the word provisional to be added, maybe the public debate goes there; if it doesnt allow it, it wont go there. Karan, we are talking of Kashmir, right? This is a disputed territory, internationally recognised
KT: Both sides of it! Both sides of it! Do not forget to include PoK-Gilgit Baltistan; its disputed, India believes
MY: Absolutely. It will be included in the plebiscite the day the plebiscite happens. My map, behind me, Pakistans official political map, all of it in one colour for that very reason. Now, youve talked of Kashmir, but Karan, let me say one thing this is no longer, unfortunately, an India focused on Pakistan doing things that are illegal and wrong. Unfortunately, we are now seeing at least, sitting on this side of the border we are seeing an ideology that you who knows better than you?
KT: Forgive me, just a moment
MY: Weve seen expansionism
KT: Just a moment! Before you start branching into an ideology and making claims, like your Prime Minister has made with the UN, that Mr. Modi
MY: Karan, youve written about it! For god sakes, youve written about it.
KT: Lets not become polemical, lets stick to details
MY: No!
KT: otherwise, we
MY: No, no I was going to
KT: will not have a discussion, we will have a tu tu, main main which will serve no ones purpose.
MY: No, no Im here to talk of the future.
KT: Let me come back to the issue
MY:Lets talk of the future, lets talk peace.
KT: I will definitely talk to you about the future
MY: Lets talk peace.
KT: but lets talk about the present first.
MY: Okay.
KT: Lets come back to Article 370. I want to point out the paradox. One, while Article 370 existed, Pakistan dismissed it as a sham. Your high commissioners repeatedly refused to meet the chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir they wouldnt recognise them. Now that Article 370 has been scrapped, youre clamouring for its restoration. You seem to be contradicting yourselves.
MY: First of all, Karan, Pakistan does not recognise cannot recognise Article 370 because Pakistans quarrel is with the actual instrument of accession; an instrument of accession that was signed under duress
KT: *chuckles* Youve just given the game away. If you cant recognise 370, why worry when its scrapped? Why make such a protest about its scrapping? Thats the point Im making.
MY: Oh, its not my issue. Im not making a protest about 370, lets be clear
KT: Your government is.
MY: No, no not at all. Show me one place where weve said 370 good or bad. We are raising an issue because you have formally gone outside the UN Charter and the resolutions by making a permanent change in the territory I rightfully claim as mine, to people who cant bear the thought of being under Indian occupation. Thats my quarrel. My quarrel is the domicile law which is thrusting people on a Muslim-majority territory to change its character.
KT: Dr. Yusuf, everything youre saying will apply to Gilgit Baltistan a campaign manifesto promise of your government, a commitment made in public by your railway minister and the Kashmir minister to the Dawn newspaper you can apply your arguments to yourself. What Im saying is
MY: So, Ive said two things to you, Karan
Read the original post:
Full Text: Interview with Imran Khans NSA on Kashmir, Uighurs, Jadhav, Terror and Talks - The Wire
- NSA fears quantum computing surprise: 'If this black swan event happens, then we're really screwed' - Washington Times - March 27th, 2024 [March 27th, 2024]
- The NSA Warns That US Adversaries Free to Mine Private Data May Have an AI Edge - WIRED - March 27th, 2024 [March 27th, 2024]
- Five ways to implement zero-trust based on NSA's latest guidance - SC Media - March 27th, 2024 [March 27th, 2024]
- Intel analyst shared classified information on Discord, investigators say - The Washington Post - March 27th, 2024 [March 27th, 2024]
- Water Systems Vulnerable To Cyber Attacks, NSA And EPA Warn Governors - Forbes - March 27th, 2024 [March 27th, 2024]
- Amritpal Singhs mother, kin of other NSA detainees go on hunger strike, want them to be shifted to Punjab jail - The Tribune India - February 24th, 2024 [February 24th, 2024]
- Rob Joyce leaving NSA at the end of March - CyberScoop - February 24th, 2024 [February 24th, 2024]
- NSA cyber director to step down after 34 years of service - Nextgov/FCW - February 24th, 2024 [February 24th, 2024]
- Behind Khattar govts U-turn on NSA against farm leaders, fear of rural blowback, Congress gain - The Indian Express - February 24th, 2024 [February 24th, 2024]
- Payday dispute prompts maintenance worker walkout at NSA Naples - Stars and Stripes - February 24th, 2024 [February 24th, 2024]
- CISA, NSA, and FBI Warn of Chinese Cyber Hacking Army The Presidential Prayer Team - The Presidential Prayer Team - February 24th, 2024 [February 24th, 2024]
- Cyber Security Headlines: Microsoft takes another hit, Energy giant hit by ransomware, the NSA is secretly buying your ... - CISO Series - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- India now cooperating with Nijjar probe: Canada's NSA - IndiaTimes - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- Google, WhiteSnake, Outlook, NSA, Juniper, Jason Wood, and More SWN #358 - SC Media - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- Readout of NSA Jake Sullivan's Meetings with PM Srettha and DPM/FM Parnpree - US Embassy in Thailand - USEmbassy.gov - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- NSA Admits Secretly Buying Your Internet Browsing Data without Warrants - The Hacker News - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- Readout of NSA Jake Sullivan's Meeting with CCP Politburo Member, Director of the Office of the Foreign Affairs ... - US Embassy & Consulates in... - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- Former NSA Saint has a chance to become repeat Super Bowl champion - The Suffolk News-Herald - Suffolk News-Herald - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- NSA is buying Americans internet browsing records without a warrant - TechCrunch - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- As NSA buys up Americans' browser records, Uncle Sam is asked to simply knock it off - The Register - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- NSA buys sensitive data on Americans without any court order - KJZZ - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- NSA Veteran Teresa Shea Joins Board of Directors of Two Six Technologies - ExecutiveBiz - January 30th, 2024 [January 30th, 2024]
- How the FBI, NSA are preparing for deepfakes and misinformation issue ahead of 2024 elections - CNBC - January 14th, 2024 [January 14th, 2024]
- AI is helping US spies catch stealthy Chinese hacking ops, NSA official says - CyberScoop - January 14th, 2024 [January 14th, 2024]
- AI aids nation-state hackers but also helps US spies to find them, says NSA cyber director - TechCrunch - January 14th, 2024 [January 14th, 2024]
- NSA Director Paul Nakasone to Step Down in Early February - Bloomberg - January 14th, 2024 [January 14th, 2024]
- NSA says cybersecurity will gain many benefits with generative AI - ReadWrite - January 14th, 2024 [January 14th, 2024]
- FBI and NSA directors discuss their concerns about AI - WCBE 90.5 FM - January 14th, 2024 [January 14th, 2024]
- Looking back at 2023 with the NSA's Rob Joyce and Morgan Adamski - CyberScoop - January 14th, 2024 [January 14th, 2024]
- NSA: Benefits of generative AI in cyber security will outweigh the bad - ITPro - January 14th, 2024 [January 14th, 2024]
- AI Identified as Emerging Threat in Cyber Crime by NSA Director - CoinGape - January 14th, 2024 [January 14th, 2024]
- AI is helping China-backed hackers but it's also helping to hunt them down, NSA says - TechRadar - January 14th, 2024 [January 14th, 2024]
- Top 10 misconfigurations: An NSA checklist for CISOs - The Stack - October 20th, 2023 [October 20th, 2023]
- CISA and NSA Issues New Identity and Access Management Guidance for Vendors - TechRepublic - October 20th, 2023 [October 20th, 2023]
- How to Protect Against Evolving Phishing Attacks - National Security Agency - October 20th, 2023 [October 20th, 2023]
- NSA Shares Recommendations to Advance Device Security Within ... - National Security Agency - October 20th, 2023 [October 20th, 2023]
- Nansemond-Suffolk tennis falls to Norfolk Academy Thursday - The ... - Suffolk News-Herald - October 20th, 2023 [October 20th, 2023]
- NSA calls for a 'root and branch' review of Red Tractor - Farmers Guardian - October 20th, 2023 [October 20th, 2023]
- Israel's NSA warns of US intervention as Gaza conflict escalates - IndiaTimes - October 20th, 2023 [October 20th, 2023]
- The U.S. government is still in its Tumblr era. - Slate - October 20th, 2023 [October 20th, 2023]
- Biden's Cyber Command and NSA nominee seen as a pick for continuity - The Record from Recorded Future News - July 17th, 2023 [July 17th, 2023]
- 5 Reasons to Work for the NSA - ClearanceJobs - ClearanceJobs - July 17th, 2023 [July 17th, 2023]
- I will do my best as NSA: Ribadu promises - FRCN HQ - Federal Radio Corporation of Nigeria - July 17th, 2023 [July 17th, 2023]
- Plateau killings: Reps ask NSA to declare national emergency - TheCable - July 17th, 2023 [July 17th, 2023]
- 7th Deputy NSA Meeting of Colombo Security Conclave held in ... - ANI News - July 17th, 2023 [July 17th, 2023]
- Young shepherd from region wins NSA North Sheep trophy ... - Darlington and Stockton Times - July 17th, 2023 [July 17th, 2023]
- HBO film based on NSA leaker Reality Winner slated for May 29 ... - Military Times - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Tina Satter on why her NSA whistleblower film Reality is stranger than fiction - Financial Times - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Gen. Paul Nakasone Plans to Step Down as NSA Director ... - Executive Gov - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Readout of NSA Jake Sullivan's Meeting with CCP Politburo ... - US Embassy & Consulates in China - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Young sheep farmers to be given genetic boost by new NSA giveaway - The Scottish Farmer - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Sydney Sweeney wanted to be challenged by Reality: Its a different muscle playing someone who is real [Exclusive Video Interview] - Yahoo... - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Intercepted: The Biggest Whodunnit of the Century - The Intercept - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- Personal injury + the No Surprises Act - Chiropractic Economics - May 18th, 2023 [May 18th, 2023]
- PM Narendra Modi e-inaugurating new office complexes of CBI at Shilong, Pune and Nagpur, commemorating the CBI diamond jubilee on Monday. Also seen... - April 4th, 2023 [April 4th, 2023]
- Special Collection Service - Wikipedia - March 31st, 2023 [March 31st, 2023]
- What is the NSA and how does it work? - SearchSecurity - February 5th, 2023 [February 5th, 2023]
- Watch: NSA Ajit Doval is Ambitious, Very Good at Sniffing Power and Being on the Right Side of itAS Dulat - The Wire - December 21st, 2022 [December 21st, 2022]
- Shockwaves win another championship, this time at the NSA Fresno Pilgrimfest - Lompoc Record - December 12th, 2022 [December 12th, 2022]
- EFCC secures forfeiture of N755m, luxury assets from ex-AGF, former aide to NSA The Nation Newspaper - The Nation Newspaper - November 23rd, 2022 [November 23rd, 2022]
- What is the National Security Agency? - Norwich University - October 25th, 2022 [October 25th, 2022]
- Cyber Security Today, Oct. 19, 2022 A warning from the NSA about nation-state attacks, and more - IT World Canada - October 21st, 2022 [October 21st, 2022]
- In the Alphabet Soup of Regulations, the NSA, GFE and AEOB Have Yet to Coalesce - RACmonitor - October 6th, 2022 [October 6th, 2022]
- Do not ignore any communication shared by NSCS, NSA: PM Modi to ministers - The Hindu - October 6th, 2022 [October 6th, 2022]
- NSA Announces Date of the National Cryptologic Museum Grand Opening - National Security Agency - October 2nd, 2022 [October 2nd, 2022]
- NSA and ACLU may face off in the Supreme Court over Wikipedia - Grid - October 2nd, 2022 [October 2nd, 2022]
- The NSA is Here to Help | Decipher - Duo Security - September 27th, 2022 [September 27th, 2022]
- Hollen, Raskin Join with NSA Bethesda Fire Fighters, IAFF Leaders to Highlight Progress on Efforts to Improve Base Conditions, Build New Facility |... - September 27th, 2022 [September 27th, 2022]
- CISA, FBI, NSA, Treasury, Cyber Command, and International Partners Release Advisory on Malicious Cyber Actors Affiliated with Iranian Government... - September 20th, 2022 [September 20th, 2022]
- NATFORCE: Buhari Finally Disbands Security Outfit After Senate Ignored NSA To Recognize Body The Whistler Newspaper - The Whistler Nigeria - September 20th, 2022 [September 20th, 2022]
- China Accuses NSA of Hacking Its Military Research University - VICE - September 9th, 2022 [September 9th, 2022]
- Behind the Toque: An Interview with NSA Noodle Bar Executive Chef Brooke Apfelbaum - greenpointers.com - September 9th, 2022 [September 9th, 2022]
- In the Garden: Tour gives Omahans a chance to see how a 'Bloom Box' works - Omaha World-Herald - September 9th, 2022 [September 9th, 2022]
- Three area teams pickup wins to start football season - The Suffolk News-Herald - Suffolk News-Herald - September 9th, 2022 [September 9th, 2022]
- NSA to reveal identities of big men behind oil theft in Nigeria Presidency - Daily Post Nigeria - August 22nd, 2022 [August 22nd, 2022]
- Former US Cyber Command and NSA chief makes the case for a cyber competition strategy | The Strategist - The Strategist - August 22nd, 2022 [August 22nd, 2022]
- Inaugural India-Central Asia NSA meeting to be held in December - WION - August 22nd, 2022 [August 22nd, 2022]
- Home | Open Source @ NSA - August 8th, 2022 [August 8th, 2022]
- Kennesaw State named top institution for cybersecurity outreach - Kennesaw State University - August 8th, 2022 [August 8th, 2022]
- US city of Boston to mark 75th anniversary of India's Independence with two-day extravaganza - NewsDrum - August 8th, 2022 [August 8th, 2022]