The other week, I had the distinct pleasure of recording a radio dialogue with Justin Brierley and best-selling British author/journalist Douglas Murray for the Unbelievable? program. We were very fortunate to catch Douglas and pin him down, coming off one of his routinely long legs of travel (we last found him in Mexico, I think) and still juggling a nightmarish schedule that kept us on our toes up to the early morning of recording. Thankfully, all was well in the end, and with Douglas adequately tanked up on coffee, followed by more coffee and then another cup of coffee, we enjoyed a very fast-paced 75-90 minutes together. Our goodbyes were warm but of necessity brief, to all our regret. While my readers wait for the program to air on January 3rd, here are some after-thoughts as a preview of coming attractions.
I first discovered Douglas in the summer of 2018 when preparing to write what would become a viral hit piece about Jordan Petersons dialogues with Sam Harris,Sam Harris Asks Questions Jordan Peterson Cant Answer.It was only the second or third thing I wrote after joining Patheos, but it would take on a life of its own and launch me into the circle of commentary on Jordan Peterson and the wider phenomenon known as the Intellectual Dark Web. Primarily famous in the UK and European pond, Douglas Murrays name rang no bells when I first saw that he would be moderating/joining the UK leg of the dialogues. By the time I came to write the piece, I had already familiarized myself enough with Douglas to know that he was far more than a third wheel in the debate and devote some space to his contributions.
Douglass body of work and thought quickly proved a much richer mine of material than I expected, on an impressively wide array of topics political and non-political. In fact, while he is best known for the former, it was some of the latter that interested me most. And among his areas of political focus, it was not necessarily his signature issues of immigration and Islam that drew and kept my strongest interest. Rather, what struck me most in getting to know Douglas through his various books, articles, speeches, etc., was the sense that I had stumbled onto one of the worlds last old humanists. (Well, that plus the sense that this guy and I would have been thick as thieves in high schoolbook thieves, natch. Any man who self-confessedly upgrades his favorite books from soft to hard-back, only to be stuck with two copies because he made notes in the soft copy so he cant get rid of that now, is a man after my own heart.)
Anyhow, humanism is a word now fraught with baggage in Christian circles, with some good reason. Many self-identified humanists proudly associate it with an aggressive rejection of the Christian faith. Nevertheless, it is a word I have argued Christians should be stealing back for themselves. I steal it back unblushingly on my own profile with the description Christian humanist. Ive developed my own philosophy of Christian humanism at some length in my contribution to the forthcoming anthology Myth & Meaning in Jordan Peterson (Lexham, March 2020the essay is entitled The Image of Christ: Peterson as Humanist). But if someone were to ask me for the short version, my new favorite short version is a riff on something Roger Scruton once said: I see the world, and the individual people in it, as lovable.
In context, Scruton was originally criticizing post-modern culture, specifically the way it desecrates the human person through art deliberately made orthogonal to beauty. This kind of art typifies a loveless culture, a culture that does not see the world as lovable. It is fundamentally anti-human. Thus, the task of the true humanist, to be a lover of mankind, is essentially counter-cultural. I would assert that it is also essentially Christian.
Why, then, do I find such a kindred spirit in Douglas Murray, who, despite my best efforts, didnt leave our conversation rushing to reaffirm the lost Anglican faith of his youth? (He was, in fact, rushing to meet his publisher for a last-minute late lunch, with humblest apologies for causing such a nuisance.) Its because I believe we each in our own way have taken up the humanists task. In a recent interview with Scotlands The Herald, he says that he doesnt love nations in the abstractEngland in the abstract, Scotland in the abstract. Rather, I love people. I love things about the people.
We both of us also recognize the Christian essence of the humanists task, even though Douglas still does so as a self-described Christian atheist. He takes this moniker both as a recognition of his abiding love for Christian language/liturgy/culture and a recognition of the Judeo-Christian bedrock that makes him wonder out loud whether human life would still be sacred in an atheist world. Douglas recognizes that he cant escape this bedrock underlying his basic instinct that while human beings are manifestly not equal in a host of outward characteristics, they are still equal in value.
As he discusses in this dialogue with Jordan Peterson (transcript here), it is this instinct that leads him to back away slowly when the odd fan asks him why he never talks about the IQ question. He urges anyone who shows an unhealthy curiosity in this area to join him. Agreeing together, both he and Peterson broadly condemn the pernicious conflation of difference in economic worth with difference in intrinsic worth. Here Douglas borrows a line from novelist Iain McEwan that hes used more than once, which is that we most of us eventually come to realize the nicest person we know may never have read a book. (Theres something about the fondness with which Douglas always lingers on this line that makes me wonder whether perhaps, for him, it might be more than hypothetical.) He wonders uneasily whether, best-selling books by Steven Pinker notwithstanding, we havent really progressed so very far beyond the 20th centurys blood-stained pages.
Douglas also has an instinct which he described to me as not just an instinct, but a drive to affirm the essential meaningfulness of life. Like Whitman, he replies to the question Oh me, oh life of the questions of these recurring, what good amid these oh me, oh life? with the answer That you are here. That life exists. Or, to quote one of his favorite lines from Rainer Maria Rilke in translation, Being here means so much. In a testy, must-read Easter debate about euthanasia with a far more calloused colleague at The Spectator, Douglas unapologetically embraces and repeats that simplest, least ironic of catch-phrases: Choose life.
I highlighted a case study from his latest book,The Madness of Crowds, about a young Belgian woman who first mutilated and then killed herself as she tried to become a man and only found that she had unlocked new depths of misery. The Belgian state was by her side the whole way, holding her hand even to the grave. Its impossible to read Murrays account of this case and not sense from him a deep sadness, an instinctive protective motion of the heart towards a soul who needed help to live and found only help to die. Its an instinct that quietly suffuses much of his commentary, inspiring me to give him the honorary title equal opportunity humanist in my review of the book. When we talked, he shared his particular burden for the listless and depressed, whom he constantly wants to encourage like Edgar encourages his blind father Gloucester in King Learas the old man falls to what he thinks is his death. Despite the fact that he has only a few more minutes of life, it is in those last few minutes that, as Douglas puts it, he discovers everything. If Douglas could leave people with one message, it would be the message that thats worth hanging around for, if you would only just hold onfor a few minutes more, hold on.
What, then, does it mean, this instinct, this drive? Douglas sees and accepts it by the natural light, like Auden in Precious Five accepts that he must bless what there is for being. What else are we made for, agreeing or disagreeing? But the question remains, to what might this point? To what, to be Augustinian about things, might this tend?
I had far too little time to discuss with Douglas where I think it tends. (For this dialogue at least, though he has graciously left his door open for more in the future.) The final third of our conversation turned to questions around Christianity, as he briefly reviewed his archetypally Victorian crisis of faith while I briefly encapsulated how I was raised to view faith and reasonas dancing partners, not enemies. When our host asked Douglas what it would take for him to make his way back, he told us only half-jokingly that he would need to hear a voice.
This challenge was a left turn, to say the least. But Douglas took pains to explain that he doesnt intend to trap Christians with it. He is quite serious: If youhave heard a voice, he would very much like to know about it. To the milquetoast politically correct Anglican who responds to the challenge with a Come come, my dear fellow, dont tell me youre actually asking about an actual voice from heaven, Douglas would say Why not? He would like to know. He would like to listen. Even if you honestly cant fake it and say youve heard a voice, at least putsomethingdown on the table. At least put some damn skin in the game, like the persecuted Christians in Africa and the Middle East, or the Christians in the American black church who dare to forgive their killers, whom Douglas regards with reverent awe. Otherwise, whats the point of it all?
There was limited time to convey that I understand what he means. I understand, I think, what hes looking for. I hope I began to nudge him towards it. I had the foresight to bring along a few of my dead friends in glorious 19th-century binding and briefly wave them at Douglas as we said our goodbyes, and to remind him of C. S. Lewiss warning that a young atheist cant be too careful of his reading material. (It amused me to realize that Ive been a Christian for over 20 years, longer than Douglas has been an atheist.) He seemed quite touched.
I have called Douglas the gay humanist in the title of this piece for purposes of clickbait (you did click, didnt you?) but Im afraid now that Ive got you all to click and read to the end I have no great reward in store. This is because it turns out I actually dont particularly care, and neither does Douglas. This was a source of some slight hilarity at one point in our dialogue, in which I waved about the woman card I never use while Douglas reflected on The Guardians mysterious reluctance to say Hey, lets give Douglas a good write-up, hes gay!
In fact, I do like to think of Douglas as a gay humanist in another and older sensethat is, the sense of men who go gayly in the dark. With such men, I will gladly walk arms linked, for only by such men is darkness pushed back one day more.
The week I recorded our dialogue, I went with a few friends to sing carols at an out-of-the-way country nursing home where an old neighbor friend of ours is spending her last days. I still had Douglass voice in my head as we walked around with our tidings of comfort and joy while the residents listened, some more responsive than others. A friends daughter walked around distributing candy canes. At one point, she came to one woman lost in Limbo. The girl wasnt sure what to do, so my father helped her. The woman eventually did take the candy.
Douglas, of course, was not there in person. Still, I shouldnt have thought it strange to turn and find him smiling over my shoulder, leaning forward to whisper, Thats worth hanging around for.
C. S. Lewis said that friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another What? You too? I thought I was the only one! Like Rick Blaine at the end of Casablanca, I believe this is only the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
Original post:
My Friend the Gay Humanist | Esther O'Reilly - Patheos
- Streaming, Politics, & Philosophy | Destiny (Steven Bonnell II) - The Daily Wire - March 24th, 2024 [March 24th, 2024]
- Jordan Peterson Proposes Using AI to Determine Whether Hitler Was Right-Wing Because He Cant Figure It Out Himself - Mediaite - March 24th, 2024 [March 24th, 2024]
- News round-up: Radical expats, Church of England anti-whiteness, and Jordan Peterson - UnHerd - March 24th, 2024 [March 24th, 2024]
- Jordan Peterson & Sam Harris Try to Find Something They Agree On - The Daily Wire - December 27th, 2023 [December 27th, 2023]
- Discussing Communism in All its Glory | Michael Malice - The Daily Wire - December 27th, 2023 [December 27th, 2023]
- Tammy Peterson's journey to Catholic conversion is really a ... - Florida Catholic - November 28th, 2023 [November 28th, 2023]
- The hairy beer belly of the Tradwife movement - The Michigan Daily - November 28th, 2023 [November 28th, 2023]
- How to Kill a Literary Genre | Jaspreet Singh Boparai - First Things - November 28th, 2023 [November 28th, 2023]
- Men, Masculinities and Memes: The Case of Incels GNET - GNET - November 28th, 2023 [November 28th, 2023]
- An Alternative to Western Nihilism | His Excellency Saeed Al Nazari - The Daily Wire - November 28th, 2023 [November 28th, 2023]
- The Future of Canada | Josh & Nick Alexander - The Daily Wire - November 28th, 2023 [November 28th, 2023]
- Thanks within Thanks - The Catholic Thing - November 28th, 2023 [November 28th, 2023]
- Here's Everything Jordan Peterson's Daughter Mikhaila Has Said ... - TheThings - October 16th, 2023 [October 16th, 2023]
- Kansas football recruiting: Jayhawk commit adding substantial offers - Through the Phog - October 16th, 2023 [October 16th, 2023]
- Have children, save the world? The right's push for the right kind of ... - Salon - October 16th, 2023 [October 16th, 2023]
- Sound of Freedom anti-sex trafficking "hero" charged with sex crimes - Daily Kos - October 16th, 2023 [October 16th, 2023]
- Jordan Peterson, explained - Vox - April 17th, 2023 [April 17th, 2023]
- UFC Champ Israel Adesanya Gives His Surprising Take On Masculinity, Lauds Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson: They Are the Ones Who Are Really Pushing Men... - April 17th, 2023 [April 17th, 2023]
- Andrew Tate Again Loses Romanian Detention Appeal: His Human Trafficking Charges Explained And A Timeline Of The Social Media Stars Controversies -... - February 2nd, 2023 [February 2nd, 2023]
- Rex Murphy: If CBC cared about diversity, it would host Jordan Peterson global warming talk - National Post - January 31st, 2023 [January 31st, 2023]
- Jordan Peterson event in Ottawa that coalition tried to cancel goes off without trouble - Toronto Sun - January 31st, 2023 [January 31st, 2023]
- Andrew Tate Detained In Romania For Another Month: His Human Trafficking Charges Explained And A Timeline Of The Social Media Stars Controversies -... - January 22nd, 2023 [January 22nd, 2023]
- Free speech isn't what Jordan Peterson thinks it is - Canada's National Observer - January 10th, 2023 [January 10th, 2023]
- Andrew Tate Appears In Romanian Court: His Human Trafficking Charges Explained And A Timeline Of The Social Media Stars Controversies - Forbes - January 10th, 2023 [January 10th, 2023]
- Read the court filing by Jordan Peterson against the College of Psychologists of Ontario - Ottawa Sun - January 10th, 2023 [January 10th, 2023]
- Jordan Peterson and Bjorn Lomborg: Hunger is more pressing than ... - National Post - December 16th, 2022 [December 16th, 2022]
- Kathy Griffin on How Elon Musk Reinstated Her Twitter Account: Dont Put My Name in the Company of White Supremacists - Hollywood Reporter - December 12th, 2022 [December 12th, 2022]
- Usman, Khamzat, Gaethje and Cejudo Visited a Chechen Dictator But: Robert Whittaker & His Wife Sofias Appearance With Controversial Figure Jordan... - December 12th, 2022 [December 12th, 2022]
- Jordan Peterson | Events - November 25th, 2022 [November 25th, 2022]
- Elon Musk begins reinstating banned Twitter accounts, starting with ... - November 25th, 2022 [November 25th, 2022]
- Olivia Wilde says Jordan Peterson inspired Chris Pines terrifying ... - November 25th, 2022 [November 25th, 2022]
- Jordan Peterson Returns To Twitter, Immediately Demands The Site Censor Anonymous Trolls - Forbes - November 25th, 2022 [November 25th, 2022]
- Jordan Petersons 5 most controversial ideas, explained - October 28th, 2022 [October 28th, 2022]
- Jordan Peterson: Id Rather Die Than Delete Truthful Tweet For Cancel ... - October 25th, 2022 [October 25th, 2022]
- Opinion: MRA and Incel Red Flags - Houston Press - October 19th, 2022 [October 19th, 2022]
- Arizona Governor Candidate Kari Lake: 'There's No Such Thing as Toxic Masculinity' - Jezebel - October 19th, 2022 [October 19th, 2022]
- Olivia Wilde Responds to Claims She 'Abandoned' Her Children - 22 Words - October 19th, 2022 [October 19th, 2022]
- 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos by Jordan B. Peterson - Goodreads - October 13th, 2022 [October 13th, 2022]
- Looking for advice on masculinity? Try St. Joseph rather than Jordan Peterson - National Catholic Reporter - October 13th, 2022 [October 13th, 2022]
- Jordan Peterson Cried Discussing How Dont Worry Darling Incel King ... - October 13th, 2022 [October 13th, 2022]
- Remember When Jordan Peterson Was a Thing? - thetriad.thebulwark.com - October 8th, 2022 [October 8th, 2022]
- Conservative stars Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro address sellout crowd in Jerusalem - JNS.org - October 8th, 2022 [October 8th, 2022]
- "Might be the greatest promotion on Earth" - Twitter erupts after Bloodline member takes a shot at Andrew Tate on WWE SmackDown premiere -... - October 8th, 2022 [October 8th, 2022]
- Quiet, everyone! Megyn Kelly has thoughts about Jordan Peterson and Super Bowl vaginas! - The Independent - October 8th, 2022 [October 8th, 2022]
- The Untold Truth Of Don't Worry Darling - Looper - October 8th, 2022 [October 8th, 2022]
- Jordan Peterson Breaks Down in Tears When Asked About Olivia Wilde Calling Him a Hero to the Incel Community: Sure, Why Not? - Variety - October 2nd, 2022 [October 2nd, 2022]
- Who is Jordan Peterson and what is his net worth? - AS USA - October 2nd, 2022 [October 2nd, 2022]
- THE WEEK AHEAD: Jews mark the holiest day of the year, Yom Kippur; Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro speak in Jerusalem; and 'The Rosenberg Report'... - October 2nd, 2022 [October 2nd, 2022]
- OPINION: Ego is the main problem of our political polarization - N.C. State University Technician Online - September 20th, 2022 [September 20th, 2022]
- What is Jordan Petersons 'grandma dream'? Story goes viral 23 years on - September 17th, 2022 [September 17th, 2022]
- Canada's Trump - The Week - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- 100-year-old Wythenshawe man one of the last to receive birthday card from Queen Elizabeth II - The Manc - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- How Marcus Mumford turned torment into healing on solo album - Los Angeles Times - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- Olivia Wilde on creating the most controversial film of the year - Sydney Morning Herald - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- The Sacred Heart of Uvalde - The Texas Observer - September 15th, 2022 [September 15th, 2022]
- Dr Jordan Peterson Launches Greek Focused Masters Programme On The Island Of Samos - GreekCityTimes.com - September 11th, 2022 [September 11th, 2022]
- Conservative Party Leader Eric Duhaime Teases An Interview With Jordan Peterson On Twitter - MTL Blog - September 11th, 2022 [September 11th, 2022]
- Jordan Peterson says he would rather die than delete his 'hateful ... - August 30th, 2022 [August 30th, 2022]
- Who is Jordan Peterson, the alt-right darling of YouTube? - August 30th, 2022 [August 30th, 2022]
- Sci-Fi Writer Patrick S. Tomlinson Instructs His Followers To Mass Report Dr. Jordan B. Peterson For "Transphobia And Dead-Naming" -... - August 30th, 2022 [August 30th, 2022]
- The top 10 audiobooks on Audible.com - Star Tribune - August 30th, 2022 [August 30th, 2022]
- I Read Robert Greene's Best-Selling Books And This Is Why I Recommend Them To Every Woman In My Life - Evie Magazine - August 30th, 2022 [August 30th, 2022]
- Beverly Peterson | News, Sports, Jobs - The Daily news - Iron Mountain Daily News - August 30th, 2022 [August 30th, 2022]
- Wingstop launches their own chicken sandwich in 12 flavors - USA TODAY - August 30th, 2022 [August 30th, 2022]
- Freeze Your Eggs: The Worst Advice Ever - The Stream - August 29th, 2022 [August 29th, 2022]
- Is Scott Galloway the Howard Stern of the Business World? - The New York Times - August 2nd, 2022 [August 2nd, 2022]
- Stephen Harper may have picked the wrong horse again - Al Jazeera English - August 2nd, 2022 [August 2nd, 2022]
- The Daily, American Dream, Emily DiDonato & Jordan Millington Liquorice Celebrated The August Cover With A Fun-filled Family Fte At The Maidstone... - August 2nd, 2022 [August 2nd, 2022]
- Reality's revenge: The return of stagflation | Columns | timesnews.net - Kingsport Times News - July 31st, 2022 [July 31st, 2022]
- America's heart of darkness: Making sense of the nonsensical allure of MAGA - Salon - July 31st, 2022 [July 31st, 2022]
- Letters to the editor: Irony and inspiration in Pope Francis's visit - National Post - July 31st, 2022 [July 31st, 2022]
- Charles Barkley Thinks Bob Myers is the 'Second-Best Thing' to Happen to Golden State - Sports Illustrated - July 31st, 2022 [July 31st, 2022]
- Can Q&A lead us out of the opinion wars its helped to fuel? - The Conversation - July 31st, 2022 [July 31st, 2022]
- The World and Everything in It: July 29, 2022 - WORLD News Group - July 31st, 2022 [July 31st, 2022]
- Wisdom of the Ages: Email, Jordan Peterson, and a Latte - Patheos - July 25th, 2022 [July 25th, 2022]
- Learn from these heroic saints who lived against the grain - Fox News - July 25th, 2022 [July 25th, 2022]
- Vegans need to stop exaggerating the health benefits of a plant-based diet - Fast Company - July 25th, 2022 [July 25th, 2022]
- Remembering the honest and natural voice of Amy Winehouse - The Daily Star - July 25th, 2022 [July 25th, 2022]
- The Barstool Bros' Split Over Abortion Could Determine the Future of the GOP - POLITICO - July 25th, 2022 [July 25th, 2022]
- From The Mailbag - The American Conservative - July 25th, 2022 [July 25th, 2022]