Category Archives: Free Speech

Editors Note: At the 10:43 mark, Mel misspeaks when she notes that tenured faculty often have the backing of a union. To clarify, tenured faculty often have the support of a union, faculty senates, or professional organizations like the AAUP.

Colleges and universities have long acted as incubators for social movements, and the movement in solidarity with Palestine is no exception. While repression against students and faculty for support of Palestine is nothing new, the upsurge in mobilization and agitation for Palestinian liberation since last fall has been met with a frenzied response from actors within and outside of university administrations. Students and faculty alike have faced retaliation from university administrators and Zionists within and beyond the student body, ranging from revocation of scholarships to expulsions, firings, and even physical assault. David Palumbo-Liu joins The Real News to discuss the growing repression of pro-Palestine activism and what it means for academic freedom.

David Palumbo-Liu is the Louise Hewlett Nixon Professor and Professor of Comparative Literature at Stanford University. He is the author of several books, including his most recent publication, Speaking Out of Place: Getting Our Political Voices Back. He is also the co-host of the podcast Speaking Out of Place.

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Studio Production: Adam Coley Post-Production: Alina Nehlich

Mel Buer: Welcome back, my friends, to The Real News Network Podcast. Im your host, Mel Buer. Before we get started on todays episode, I wanted to take a moment at the top of the hour to thank you, our listeners, for your dedicated support of this outlet. Whether youve got our shows on while youre making coffee in the morning, put our podcasts on during your commute to and from work, or give us a listen throughout the workday, The Real News Network is committed to bringing you ad-free, independent journalism that you can count on. We care a lot about what we do and its through donations from dedicated listeners like you that we can keep on doing it. Please consider becoming a monthly sustainer of The Real News Network by heading over to therealnews.com/donate and if you want to stay in touch and get updates about our work, then sign up for our free newsletter at therealnews.com/sign-up. As always, we appreciate your support in whatever form it takes.

Since October of last year, the response to the war in the Middle East has become a flashpoint in an ongoing battle over freedom of expression on university campuses. In the last few months, university faculty members have been suspended, adjunct professors have been investigated, and students and student groups have been harassed and intimidated by outside organizations and university administrations alike. According to reporting by the New York Times, Palestine Legal, a civil rights organization has Received more than 450 requests for help for campus-related cases since the Hamas attack, more than a tenfold increase from the same period last year. The cases include students who have had scholarships revoked or been doxxed, professors who have been disciplined, and administrators who have gotten pressured by trustees. While universities have historically been the site of spirited and often contentious debate over these issues related to Israel and Palestine, the increased instances of censorship and punishment by administrations open a disturbing new chapter in the fight for free expression on college campuses.

With me today to discuss these concerning new developments is David Palumbo-Liu, a Louise Hewlett Nixon professor and professor of comparative literature at Stanford University. His interests include human rights, race, gender, ethnicity, indigeneity, and environmental justice. His writings have appeared in The Washington Post, The Nation, The Guardian, Al Jazeera, Truthout, Salon, and elsewhere. His latest book is Speaking Out of Place: Getting Our Political Voices Back from Haymarket Books, and hes one of the hosts of a podcast also called Speaking Out of Place where he and fellow co-host Aziza Kanji talk about decolonization, anti-racism, climate chastise, and Palestine, among other important topics. Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for coming on the show, David. To start our conversation, I wanted to take a moment to give our audience a brief introduction to the intimidation, harassment, and policies of censorship that weve been seeing on university campuses across the country. Weve seen some of the more high-profile instances like university professors being investigated and sometimes suspended for sharing memes, for example, on their personal social media accounts. Weve also seen student organizations be suspended, most notably The Students for Palestinian Justice, various chapters have had their charter revoked on a number of campuses across the country. The way that we can start this conversation is to take a broad-stroke look at the actions that universities have been taking against their students and faculty. What are some of the stories that youve been hearing or how can we start this conversation?

David Palumbo-Liu: It ranges from everything from being brought to meet administrators to have friendly conversations about, hey, what are you all doing saying these things or organizing these events because they are disturbing students, and thats left open, but understood, to disciplinary actions like the revocation of membership. Or the right of the organization to bear the universitys name, harassment of professors coming in and saying things largely based on hurt feelings, and being upset about certain things being said. In some ways, its important to note that this has been going on for a long, long, long time, but theres a very disturbing new wrinkle these days. So if youd like, I could talk about a brief sketch of the history up to whats happening today and why its so unusual.

Mel Buer: Absolutely.

David Palumbo-Liu: Okay. So I would say autobiographically, Im a scholar of comparative literature, race, and ethnicity, and my first work was on Asian-American studies, et cetera. So way back in 2013, the Association for Asian-American Studies became the first academic organization to endorse BDS. We were a mighty group of 500 people and we voted unanimously for it because it made all the sense in the world. We were hit immediately by the press, by members of Congress getting down on our case. This was amazing to me that we were insignificant. We would like to believe we were significant in important ways, but no, it was purely because of our vote. What we see today has so many elements of it. I was thinking about that when I was invited onto your show because the way I got involved was there was a lot of racism along with upset about criticizing Israel, and the racism took the form of what would Asians know or care about Israel-Palestine? And so you all dont know this stuff, stay in your lane, et cetera.

This is the first piece I ever wrote publicly on this. I said, well, Hawaii was annexed, the Philippines were colonized, the Japanese and Americans were interned, and Vietnam was attacked. So we understand these issues of indigeneity and colonization and imperialism fine, thank you. But it was the year later in 2014 when the Association for American Studies voted for the boycott and that blew everybodys mind because this was a real academic organization. It wasnt Asian American, which is marginal, but American. It was the bread and butter of American studies. But these things followed a decade earlier, in 2004 at Columbia, a group of pro-Israel people I dont know if they were faculty, students, or a combination thereof, probably with some outsiders too Produced a film called Columbia Unbecoming and it was a hit job on anybody who was pro-Palestinian or vaguely anti-Israel. And that created a huge stir and that was the first salvo of things.

Skip forward to today, all those things are still happening and you can almost see the same rhetoric, and the same phrases are being used. Whats new today and extremely disturbing is its piggybacked on top of attacks on DEI and theres a good reason for that: The current hearings that the ICJ bear it out, this is a battle about imperialism and colonialism and the racial elements come out very starkly. You have people like Chris Ruffo from Manhattan Institute playing his song but partnering up with this guy Bill Ackman, whos this hedge funder who has his own ax to grind. They attack a Black woman and they bring her down with every possible tool and pseudo-tool they can use because theyre freaked out. Its important for your listeners to understand that Israel has a whole wing in its propaganda arsenal thats specifically devoted to squelching any hint that Palestinian causes are in any way related to the Black cause, related to Indigenous causes. They have a whole rap about that because thats what theyre so afraid about.

Whats happening now is that theres this new legislation that brings in the exploits of already existing legislation about partnering with foreign elements, and it works in both ways. Students for Justice and Palestine and a new group called Faculty for Justice in Palestine, which is a supporting organization, are being threatened with being characterized as under the sway of a foreign terrorist organization, that we support Hamas and therefore we are much like South Africa. As you remember, at the ICJ, were accused of being agents for Hamas. The same thing is being extended across the ocean to the US.

By the same token, a lot of these pro-Israel groups are partnering with Israel. I can tell you from my experience, that theres clear evidence. Theyre proud of the fact that a lot of the anti-boycott people in the US are colluding with or working with the state of Israel. So its become an international issue that is taking shape in nearly every country in the West in these formations. Its not just the US, I would say in Germany its worse, but France and England all have some version of this going on.

Mel Buer: Right. Its important to draw attention to the tiered nature of work in higher education in the context of this conversation because what we see is tenured professors, who have often the backing of a union and are full-time workers at the university, are experiencing a different type of censure, perhaps suspension. The classes get canceled, but theyre still employed by the university. Theres an additional element of intimidation that happens to contingent faculty, adjuncts, and associate professors who often dont have the benefit of union representation, and who are often regarded as independent contractors.

I was an adjunct professor for a couple of years before I became a full-time journalist here so I understand the precarity. I understand the anxiety of precarity and I understand the anxiety of self-censorship on tough topics that arent remotely related to what were speaking of today in order to preserve livelihood. That adds an additional element to this. I imagine that these campaigns that are waged against faculty members and students But faculty members like were speaking of from these donors These outside organizations, the folks who are engaging a lot of the resources and time and money in doxing these professors and putting them up on these websites like The Canary website that contributes to this anxiety and makes it difficult for this free expression to continue on these campuses. Do you have any thoughts about that?

David Palumbo-Liu: Yes. Well, Im glad you mentioned unions because here at Stanford last year, graduate student work was unionized and one of their first big public acts was to come out in support of Palestinian labor. So this is another whole set of connections that Israel absolutely hates. But you raised an important point, and Im glad you mentioned the idea of self-censorship because it works in pernicious ways within the tenured faculty. And let me explain that by the time people become tenured, they become institutionalized, they become socialized to the institution. So if they have And Ive seen this sadly in so many cases Strong liberal edging into progressive, probably not radical positions, by the time you become socialized, you dont want to make waves, so you are self-censoring. So even if you have tenure, you are reluctant to use it, and precisely the purpose of tenure is to be used.

A friend of mine whos an activist said tenure is not like a get-out-of-jail-free card that you use every single day to say things other people cant say. In savvy organizing on campuses, what one does is distribute the labor so that faculty who are tenured do certain things that untenured faculty cant do, and then graduate student employees, et cetera, et cetera. And this is another thing that freaks people out: It is when we are talking with each other and strategizing and understanding, doing power mapping in institutions, that makes us formidable. What they want to do most is draw and splinter things apart so you offer some perk to one group or flatter another group, but precisely because this has been such an ongoing struggle. People are savvy to this, and this is another thing that frustrates our antagonists is because they only have one tune to play.

They have more people joining the course but its the same message. If you look at the playbook of hurt feelings, thats as old as the hills and its so thin. And yet whats scary now is its because of this collusion of hedge funders Amher, Panary mission, the state of Israel, and then the DEI folks, the Manhattan Institute, and this ilk, they have more amplitude plus the fact that the media is bought into this because it sells whatever, and it confirms the narrative of this whole issue began on October 7. The programmed amnesia as to how we got to this point in the first place is something that media, especially the American media, is bought into.

So we have much more power than we had before because its now a global movement, but also the stakes are higher for the other side. And so they are amping up their game and its going to be a war of attrition essentially. Were going to win, frankly, because we have so many people coming into this, and youre of that generation and those younger than you even, their first recognition of whats going on in Palestine will be the gutted-out buildings and slaughtering Gaza. It wont be the Holocaust, which is my generation. This will be their Ground Zero.

Mel Buer: I like that youve brought up this point that history did not begin on October 7 and that this particular issue has been ongoing. The ongoing occupation of Palestine and its violence has been ongoing in the last couple of years. What weve seen on social media, the bombing of the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood and the various violent responses to peaceful protests in Gaza and the West Bank are important moments to highlight here. This is a very large mobilization of students who are a powerful political force in this country, and were seeing the largest mobilization, anti-war mobilization since the Iraq war. Its a wonderful thing to see the power that students are taking back. And as a former academic, I love it. I love to see it.

Its good to point out that this cannot be viewed in a vacuum, and that the legacy of this extends farther than propaganda would like us to believe. A huge problem is that especially in the last 10 years or so, what weve seen is this concerted effort by French groups on the far right who have made their way into positions of power at the federal and state levels to separate us from that history and to pervert the sense of academic expression and freedom in order to continue this project of censorship. I wonder if you had additional thoughts about that.

David Palumbo-Liu: When we talk about the media, and you brought this up earlier, so much of what we know and understand and act on the basis of does not emanate from the mainstream media. That we are so tuned into alternate media. And I would say that that could stand as an analog to the fact that most young people, frankly, I dont know what language I can use on your show, but dont give a shit about college administrators. The college administrators and the others will be saying, we wont let this And people say, stop us. They are less cowed by power than Ive ever seen before in my life. Theyve grown up with a healthy cynicism, if not minimally skepticism, but healthy cynicism because theyve seen from the George Floyd moment onward the failure of our institutions, the complete bankruptcy of our institutions, that they understand that maybe theres a one in five or one in seven chance, perhaps something will work the way the institution says it works.

But what we have at Stanford, and Id like to mention this, is that theres a sit-in. Students for Palestine and allies have been engaged in a 24/7 sit-in since October. Its the longest-standing occupation of the Stanford campus. The administration was thinking, well, its California. When it starts to rain and get cold, theyll leave. They were there 24/7 throughout the break. What they did was they had a wonderful time sharing things. So students, especially Arab, Muslim, and Palestinian, would go back to see their families, and other people would come in, right?

Mel Buer: Right.

David Palumbo-Liu: What they created there was a sense of community that all universities say we want people to believe they belong. They never do. Its when its organic that it is durable and lasting. I dont see that sit-in ending anytime soon, but the spirit is going to live on forever. This is something we always have to underscore is that generationally theres a healthy gap and that almost, I wouldnt say immunizes, but it protects those of us who are fighting the struggle because we are leaning on each other. We realize that administrators, theyre not I said this at the vigil, and I didnt mean it to be insulting to administrators, but I said you have to realize these arent people. They probably, God willing, have good, vibrant family lives at home when they clock off, but when they come to campus, they become functionaries. They feign humanity. But we cant let that seduce us into believing that were dealing with this. We have to understand how power works and endow each other with the power rather than rely on it externally.

Mel Buer: Thats a good point to bring up. I was reading a recent New York Times article that talked about the battle for free academic expression on campuses as it relates to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Theres a crucial point in there that students do not view these reactionary, uneven applications of policies or the restricting of these campus groups as anything other than ham-fisted attempts by the university to exert some control. And they will naturally react to that because thats what happens when you have this power imbalance on college campuses. We saw this when I spoke to these wonderful Dartmouth undergrads who are very smart young people. They also viewed the same thing. They were arrested for trespassing. The university president had called the police on them for maintaining a 24/7 vigil, and eventually, it came to the point where the university president said this is unsafe, which you and I both know is absurd. Its a peaceful occupation of a space.

So it began this conversation on their campus about the utility of such vigils, of such occupations, which is a very important educational space where young activists can use this as the springboard for more coherent thought as they move forward into their adulthood, as they become more entrenched in the university systems, they begin to understand their place as students. Thats great. Its encouraging to see because it has not stymied the efforts of one of the largest student mobilizations weve seen in a generation. But there is the problem of these outside organizations engaging in harassment campaigns and intimidation campaigns. Im thinking of students faces being plastered on billboards and driven around school campuses and these policies of protecting students are being often applied unevenly.

Theres no consistency in this because you can make the argument that these policies are meant to protect students from this harassment, but were not quite seeing that. I dont know exactly what its like on Stanfords campus, but we are seeing this is what created the maelstrom around Claudine Gays resignation is this inability to protect students from rising incidents of antisemitism, but were not seeing the same effort being put forth for students who are being subject to Islamophobia or anti-Muslim hate. Were seeing some very horrible violence against young people from individuals in this country as a result of this conflict.

So in terms of conversation point, thats something that I want to bring up. And I also would like us to maybe think about what is the way forward for universities. The opinion in this New York Times article is that these policies need to be applied even-handedly, consistently, and without prejudice in order to protect all students who are involved in an important very contentious conversation. What are your thoughts about that? What do you think about the broad application here and how we can move forward without unnecessarily curbing the free expression and free speech of students on university campuses in the US?

David Palumbo-Liu: Well, a wonderful Palestinian American poet, Remi Kanazi, posted on his Instagram, that something that has stuck with me is he says everybody has the right to be safe, but you dont have the right to feel safe. Thats an important distinction. I want to commend our leadership; We began our term with a very brief statement that said were a university. Our stock and trade is debate, contesting assertions, and being able to learn from the different back and forth, the usual stuff. And they said that with that comes our obligation that everybody is physically safe. I wrote them immediately thanking them because its important to underscore that yes, everybody has the right to feel and to be physically safe. And I would extend that in a materialistic way to saying, no, you shouldnt fear that your job or your livelihood, your material existence would be threatened, which is what these folks are doing.

As Ackman said, well, lets make sure all these people are never employed doing this. That is reaching into that level of unsafety. But to feel safe is such an atmospheric thing that we need to trace that back to whatever source that is. I would say we should embrace the struggle against antisemitism frontally and say look at white supremacy. Lets look at the real virulent and violent antisemitism and not let it get sidetracked into the exploitation of the term. Its such a cheapening of the term like genocide, the way that is saying how we could not possibly bring that. Hamas isnt applying genocide, and Im a literature person, and so are you apparently, right?

Mel Buer: Yes.

David Palumbo-Liu: When you cheapen language that way, youve taken away any scaffolding you have for any morality or ethics. So I would say embrace antisemitism and say, yes, were all for that. Where do you see it? Wheres the real threat coming from? Lets join each other in this battle against all bigotry. The free speech issue has to be, as you say, evenly applied, but more importantly, perhaps is the step that we need to take before we get there, which is to find out on what terrain and through what arguments is it being unevenly applied. But lets disarm that bifurcation so we understand better whats going on. Because in understanding the bifurcation, we already have gone a long way toward being able to be more even-handed about this.

Mel Buer: Right. Just to clarify, what were talking about here is embracing the attempts to combat antisemitism, to embrace anti-antisemitism, and to understand that You are correct The white supremacist project loves to pervert this and to use these terms, to use these struggles as a way to further the white supremacist, white nationalist project, especially on college campuses. Prior to this, we were seeing it in the anti-critical race studies on campuses. This is the next chapter in a longer project of attempting to remove any chances of having those conversations on a college campus and to reduce the institution and the power that the institution can have for young people to a shadow of itself. And to make it impossible for young folks, myself included, to be able to maintain any space within the institution and to be able to contribute very important conversation, research, and education to the wider institution in the US.

David Palumbo-Liu: It is such a typical element in the reactionary playbook. The fight against affirmative action, the fight for individual freedom. Its this doubling up of language, and this is something else we should talk about. The Supreme Court cutting down affirmative action. This is all part of the racist movement in this country toward more and more silencing and de-legitimizing a protest and difference, flat-out difference.

Mel Buer: I agree. Its a multifront assault on the ability to ferment descent and its extremely disturbing to see how its playing out and how it has played out in the last 10 years, this true and total descent into fascism in this country.

David Palumbo-Liu: Absolutely.

Mel Buer: Of which we are going to see what happens at the end of this year when we get through our new election year.

David Palumbo-Liu: Im deeply pessimistic.

Mel Buer: I am as well, unfortunately. I do think that there are things to be somewhat stoked about. I do think that the student mobilization on these campuses is incredible. That is a wonderful thing to see. Labors renaissance and resurgence over the last couple of years is something to be hopeful about.

David Palumbo-Liu: Absolutely.

Mel Buer: I am not quite as hopeful that our saviors are not going to be found in the federal government and the way that its currently run. I do not believe that we are going to see anything good come out of this election. And we havent seen that in a long time. Its been working people, its been the working class, its been politically engaged, socially engaged individuals that have moved the needle in this country since its inception and beforehand, and its going to continue to be that way.

David Palumbo-Liu: I absolutely agree, and organization is everything. Thats the key element here. I would say fine, elect Biden and then impeach him. We have to have some semblance of a structure, which Trump is now, in mainstream news, theyre calling a fascist, but they dont understand what that means because those folks are all pretty well impervious. Its the people on the ground that are going to be hit hardest and most immediately. So as much as it disgusts me to think of voting for genocide Joe, Im not voting for him, Im voting for a few more years to fight.

Mel Buer: Unfortunately, I cant tell you which direction Im voting, but I understand the impulse and I understand the discourse that surrounds that. Electoralism at that level, becomes a bandaid on a gash, and its ultimately, its not the thing that keeps communities together.

David Palumbo-Liu: Absolutely.

Mel Buer: And moves us in a direction, a progressive forward direction that improves the lives, material, and otherwise of working people in this country. But yeah, I get the impulse.

David Palumbo-Liu: We have to preserve that space above all because the more we invest in electoral politics, the more we are sucked into that discourse and that mode of living. Its a mode of living. And you put your faith in things that probably in some part of your soul, are a one in five, one in seven chance of working. And we have to revitalize that spirit all the time. This is what I see globally. One thing I would add to this, as much as I was talking about the wonderful global efforts that we see now for Palestinian liberation, I cant underscore enough the fact that the US, the people in the US have a special obligation to stop this because we are funding. Its our tax money. Lets imagine all these billions of dollars going toward healthcare, education, or housing. Why are we supporting a fascist regime to support our fascist regime? Ive answered my own question. Its the retention of power, but its obscene and its awful.

Mel Buer: Theres a special helplessness that comes from seeing this play out because if you look at any of the more respectable polls in this country, no one is happy about this. A very small group of people are excited about this consistent funding of horrible conflicts and proxy wars and everything else, and were suffering. People in this country are suffering. And yeah, you feel a little bit stuck in the belly of the beast.

David Palumbo-Liu: Oh, absolutely, yeah.

Mel Buer: Ive had many conversations with friends and comrades about how to combat that hopelessness. The biggest thing for our listeners, if theyre also feeling that hopelessness, is that the only way out is through together. There will be moments in the future where we can as there are moments now where we can push back against this, and our dissent as small as it may feel is mighty, powerful, and important. Otherwise, sometimes the only solace is that you came out on the right side of history. And thats something, thats something.

David Palumbo-Liu: I dont know what the ethics of podcasting are but could I mention something, a conversation that took place on the podcast I did?

Mel Buer: Sure.

David Palumbo-Liu: Is that okay?

Mel Buer: Sure. Absolutely.

David Palumbo-Liu: Im cross-branding here. I interviewed this amazing Taiwanese activist couple that is older than me, and they started working against fascism in Taiwan Because of the layers of Japanese occupation Then The Kuomintang came in and they were fighting for indigenous land rights in Taiwan. They came to the US to study chemistry. They landed in Chicago in 1968. They immediately become radicalized. They learn about the Americas dirty wars in Latin America. They protest whats going on in Chile. They were in the Turkish flotilla that tried to breach the blockade of Gaza. He was on board that ship where the Israelis killed people.

Then they took it upon themselves to become interested in the Spanish Civil War and the International Brigade and the way that Asian and South Asians were involved. They start interviewing all these veterans of the International Brigade and one of the people they talked to first is Kenneth Grabber: David Grabbers father. Long story short, theyve been very active here at Stanford. I met them at a Palestine rally and I interviewed them and the woman said, thinking about the international debate when you have 40,000 volunteers Most of whom didnt speak each others language They saw that as the frontline of the fight against fascism and they could see WWII on the horizon.

And she said, when I think of those people, and when I think of what the Palestinians are going through now, I feel I dont have the right to despair. That theres something that drives you beyond any calculation of victory or particular outcome. You just feel, and this is how I feel every day when I dont know how you feel, but sometimes I catch myself smiling. I think, how can I smile? How can I feel happy with whats going on in Gaza? And then by the same token, the Palestinians are depending on us. We cant afford to have that despair weigh on us so much that we dont do whatever we can manage to do that day or that moment. So your work and the work of others like you are so important. We have to keep the rhythm going because one person will pick up the beat when the other person falters.

Mel Buer: I agree. I do want to talk about your podcast, by the way. I do have a question about it. So thank you for bringing it up. But to put a pin in this conversation were having, I have a lot of conversations, particularly with another podcaster, a wonderful friend of mine, his name is Aaron. We talk a lot about the existential anxiety of being politically active, being progressive, and staring down the barrel of what climate apocalypse, a breakdown of empire, what that looks like for those of us in the empire. Its not pretty now. We dont want to fall into despair. And for us, weve taken a long view of our participation in these movements as we may not see the ultimate outcome in our lifetime, but we have carried the torch forward.

That in itself is a worthy endeavor, and God willing, we see it in our lifetime. We see the clouds breaking and all of the work of generations of individuals will be rewarded with something beautiful and the same thing in Palestine. To take that view of things takes the edge off the existential dread and makes you feel as if you should feel part of a much larger project that is way bigger than you, me, or anyone else. Thats an important note there to remember that optimism is important, that that long view of your participation in history is important, and that without it, you arent effective. You as a person cant participate fully in your own life or in the movements in which you esteem so highly.

David Palumbo-Liu: Well, ironically, our opponents or antagonists have done us the great favor of consolidating into a very identifiable group. In other words, they dont know what theyre fighting. Its like wokeness. Its very amorphous. And we can whack-a-mole. We can pop up any place. I see it in my students, and its ironic in the middle of Silicon Valley, or maybe not, maybe its the most logical thing in the world, but its capitalism. It is. So it all bleeds into this capitalist class. And environmentally, people get the extraction, the ruthless exploitation of everything in the world, everything for what? For the instantiation of endless need for things that we dont need and the siphoning off of resources. Look at the Middle East; We wouldnt care if it wasnt oil. Thats an overstatement, but that is such a vital part of it.

Mel Buer: The US is supposedly bombing Yemen over shipping containers, so it makes sense.

David Palumbo-Liu: Capitalism is itself a symptom of a way of life that more and more people are rejecting. They see with the climate crisis, we have a shrinking window. So what are we going to do with that time? Its got to be with jettisoning things that are unnecessary to focus on whats necessary and because of our vast generational difference, I can tell you when you get older, you realize how precious life is and what you need to jettison to enjoy life. This is happening to your generation much sooner than it should and the strength will lie in us pulling ourselves back from the precipice altogether. And again, we have the advantage of locating it very clearly.

Mel Buer: Right. To close our conversation, I did want to take a moment to alert our listeners to your podcast, because I listened to a couple of the episodes and it is so good. It is now on the regular rotation for my listens. Its Speaking Out of Place, and it gives listeners a wealth of information on a number of important issues that might help broaden their thinking on these topics. You discuss decolonization and anti-racism, and you talk about Palestine. Can you tell us about your podcast, your cohost, and why you think its important to speak on these issues? Are there interesting and good conversations that you can point to that would help our listeners have a broader understanding of what weve been talking about today? How about it? Lets talk about it.

David Palumbo-Liu: Oh, thats so kind of you, and thank you for doing this. What happened to me is that at a certain point Because Ive been blogging an awful lot Wrote for Jacob in Truthout and Salon and other places, and finally I decided to pull back from that and write another book but I didnt want it to be an academic book. I had placed some essays and books that Haymarket did so I approached Haymarket and they were very, very accommodating and very kind, and they published this book called Speaking Out of Place. And I thought, well, now its out in the world. I thought it was a good book, what to do now? At that point, I had been writing with a person named Aziza Kanji, whos in Toronto. Shes a legal scholar and activist. We at some point got tired of working with editors Especially after Trumps election, the media space shrank enormously And so we were pitching to places that we had usually gotten very quick responses from, and we were getting shut out. So we golfed back.

Then a friend of mine said, you have a nice voice He was a good person to talk to And you should do a podcast. I said, ah, yet another medium to try to master. I dont want to make too much of a long story about it at, Stanford, it was decided that would be a new Race Institute. And the advertising for the Race Institute was, frankly, obnoxious, terrible, toxic, and managerial. I was invited to do a book launch on Speaking Out of Place by some people associated with the Race Institute. I thought, well, Im going to speak out of place. And so I went there and some friends said, I cant make it this and that. Could you record it? I asked the sponsors, can I record? And they said fine. And I got there and I realized that I was embodying what I was telling other people to do. And I said, look, Im going to speak out of place.

And the idea of doing racial justice at an institution is oxymoronic. Its a liberal adjustment. And that became my first piece of audio tape, and I put it out there and I thought, hey, I learned garage band. I can fiddle around with this stuff. And then I had a wonderful friend in Paris who taught me a lot of things. Weve done things on Palestine, weve done things on sexual violence, we did a wonderful episode with Sarah Ahmed. We did one with Eliza Featherstone about labor victories on public utilities in New York City. Were very wide open to anything thats under-covered or covered poorly by the mainstream press. But basically, its my lifeline into the world outside of stuff. I invite any listener of yours to contact me and pitch something. I love talking with people. We did one with an Indigenous legal expert in Canada about how Indigenous law doesnt look at the laws of humans, but the laws of nature. We paired him up with a guy named Paco Cabo who talks about plant sentience.

Oh, we did a wonderful one with two people who This is one of my favorite ones, we just put it up Wrote a book called We Are Nature Defending Itself. The French tried to build an airport on 4,000 acres of wetlands, it was a 40-year struggle, and these folks went there and they won. The French government accused them of being like ISIS to begin with, which is hilarious. And theyre, among other things, anarchists, but they partnered with local farmers. It was a beautiful act of solidarity. Finally, it was probably the highest compliment the French government could give them. They said this land was lost to the republic. They said, yes, they won. Theyre now in that common sense. So those kinds of stories are what youll find on Speaking Out of Place.

Mel Buer: Great. Great. Ill make sure to put a link to your podcast in our show notes for everyone.

David Palumbo-Liu: Oh, thanks so much.

Mel Buer: Thats a great way for us to end this conversation, but thanks again for coming on the show to talk about these important topics, David. This has been great. Im glad that we got a chance to do this and thank you for coming on so quickly. Can you tell our listeners where we can find your work? Whats your email or do you have social media that you would like folks to know about?

David Palumbo-Liu: Right. Well, you can contact me through Speaking Out of Place, we have a website. Its one word, speakingoutofplace.com. Im on social media, mostly on my Instagram. I have a private Instagram, but our public Instagram is @SpeakingOutofPlace, so you can reach me through the public Instagram, which is probably where I am most of the time.

Mel Buer: Great. Thank you.

David Palumbo-Liu: Thank you.

Mel Buer: Thanks.

David Palumbo-Liu: Its been a wonderful conversation.

Mel Buer: I agree. I agree. Thats it for us here at The Real News Network Podcast. Once again, Im your host, Mel Buer. If you loved todays episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get notified when the next one drops. You can find us on most platforms, including Spotify and YouTube. If youd like to get in touch with me, you can find me on most social media. My DMs are always open, or send me a message via email at mel@therealnews.com. Send your tips, comments, questions, concerns, or episode ideas; Id love to hear from you. Thank you so much for sticking around and Ill see you next time.

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